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 Post subject: Re: Why Not the Pearl?
PostPosted: Wed Dec 10, 2014 8:55 pm 
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gino wrote:
who is "Hobie Long Beach" ?


The Factory.
mmiller wrote:
I can combine your topic with your 2013 "One Design" topic that has 13 pages... same discussion.


You could, but I wanted to be more specific this time. 13 pages should be a sign. :-)

dorienc wrote:
How big is the Pearl?[/quote

18'

mmiller wrote:
The pearl is nothing more than a Hobie Tiger with centerboards and was never successful on Europe


I believe that's because there was soooo many boats offered in Erope. If you were selling both the 20 and the Pearl I would buy the 20 but if you had only one them.......

wscotterwin wrote:
There is no magic "boat" pill


I agree, but to do nothing is like.....doing nothing.

AntonLargiader wrote:
All that said, I remember Matt's comments from a year or two ago where he said there is no market for high-performance catamarans.


Not high-performance. That was part of my original point. I solid catamaran that most can learn and take as far as a one design regatta. An upgrade from a Getaway for sure. But no where near a Wildcat.

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 Post subject: Re: Why Not the Pearl?
PostPosted: Wed Dec 10, 2014 10:03 pm 
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There are two major problems with sailing at this level that I can see...

Ease of entry.

and

Available options.

There are plenty of people sailing old boats out there, there are plenty of people sailing all sorts of cats for all sorts of reasons, the variety of aftermarket suppliers and their ability to stay in business making trampolines and such helps to prove that. I am trying to get a more official sailing program going out here in California, that supports Cat sailing education. I find that anyone that I can actually get onto one of my boats, gets REALLY excited and wants to do more. Our fleet is growing, our H18 fleet is growing in a very small area with limited resources. I find that most Hobie folks are excited to help new sailors out, but few are actively recruiting.

We buy motorcycles because they are sexy, we buy sports cars and kiteboarding kits for the same reason. Easy to setup, fast and thrilling.

The Bravo, the Wave, The Getaway and the T2 provide nice beginner boats, but there is no active advanced class to grow into. The H16 success is that you can start on a $400 boat and then go race against guys that have been doing it for 50 years and REALLY know their stuff. The competition for the Pearl or other such updated H16 shouldn't be between the Hobie classes, but rather between the exciting water sports options: Kite boarding, NACRAs, Day Sailors...

I work with some people that are frustrated by the limited action in their various mono hull fleets. The point of this conversation is that everything is drying up. The H16 class is dying off, not so much because people are leaving or boats are breaking, but because we aren't getting new blood. Nobody is going to buy a new H16 to play on, when they can buy a more modern option from someone else.



The H18 is our boat of choice now on the Central coast of CA, because we can go racing, we can go play in the ocean, and we can take 4 people out without causing a headache. The H16 on its best day cannot cater to that purpose, even if I managed to lose 50 lbs. If there is a thought to bringing back a boat for use outside of resorts or rental fleets, Hobie could probably get a lot of help from its established customer base. We could put on events and bring people out. The classic ploy of giving schools a discount, so that students get familiar with something and want to continue. Test market in a region...

If Hobie is already setup to make the boat, or could tweak an existing plan to be more versatile. A plan could be put together to do a test run, like the H18 hulls that were made a few years back.

In any case, while I agree a high performance boat is not going to get anywhere. I think the performance should be a bit higher than the H16. The T2 seems like a sweet idea, rotomold and all... if it could outperform the 16, I'd be working on trying it out and pushing for fleet support. If it can handle decent surf with some weight on it, then maybe we have a boat to work on. The H18 and H20 fleet came from the 16s. We need to build the core fleet first.

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 Post subject: Re: Why Not the Pearl?
PostPosted: Thu Dec 11, 2014 4:04 am 
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mmiller wrote:
At this point I would push Hobie 16 as the dominant class. Why fight it?


Seriously, why don't you people all just stop your whining and buy a Hobie 16? :lol: :roll:

13 pages of discussion a year ago, our voices have been heard and it's pretty clear where Hobie Cat Company stands on the subject.

I would push adding a spinnaker to the Hobie 18 platform as the only far out snowball chance in hell possibility of establishing a one-design spinnaker racing class in the HCA-NA. The best chance for success would be to establish a design that can be tested provisionally. Get a few boats to agree to trial the design and race under a "gentleman's" agreement at a few points regattas. If the sailors enjoy the racing, see if a class can be established in the HCA (I know, unlikely). If the HCA won't support it, then just do it off the grid. Either way, it's something that would have to build from the ground up- it clearly isn't going to happen from the top down.

sm


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 Post subject: Re: Why Not the Pearl?
PostPosted: Thu Dec 11, 2014 6:11 am 
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wscotterwin wrote:
An upgrade from a Getaway for sure. But no where near a Wildcat.


Sounds like a 16. :) Or an 18.

I haven't sailed an F18 but from what I have read here the complexity and time of setup is well beyond that of a 16. The 16 is already tedious to rig compared to the simpler cats, and you're not going to attract a large following with a boat that takes most of an hour to set up. Remember it's not just about racing; the boat needs to be attractive as a day sailor. OTOH setting up for kiteboarding takes some time also, but you can do all that out of a hatchback.

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 Post subject: Re: Why Not the Pearl?
PostPosted: Thu Dec 11, 2014 8:23 am 
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moncasta wrote:
Seriously, why don't you people all just stop your whining and buy a Hobie 16?


The rumor is, a brand new H16 comes with a free fishing kayak now :lol:

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 Post subject: Re: Why Not the Pearl?
PostPosted: Thu Dec 11, 2014 9:14 am 
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gino wrote:
who is "Hobie Long Beach" ?


wscotterwin wrote:
The Factory.


To be clear... The US Factory is in Oceanside. The Europe factory is in Toulone, France. The Australasia factory is in Huskisson, NSW Australia.

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 Post subject: Re: Why Not the Pearl?
PostPosted: Thu Dec 11, 2014 9:23 am 
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Quote:
13 pages should be a sign.


Not trying to be difficult, but being honest. Lots of interest does not add up to sales. I can't see Hobie Cat "trying" to introduce an old design as the new class. I had TONs of interest in us making Hobie 18 hulls again a few years back. We made ten sets with committed buyers. It took YEARS to move all of the hulls. Seems people are interested until the actual reality of buying comes up.

Not saying we won't make another cat in that range. The cost would not be cheap though. Hand laid fiberglass is an expensive process.

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 Post subject: Re: Why Not the Pearl?
PostPosted: Thu Dec 11, 2014 9:43 am 
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And I am not trying to be difficult as well.

The 18 hulls produced were great and I believe that should be done again to support the surging class but it would be hard to expect massive sales on a boat that is still discontinued.

I believe in Hobie. I live the "Hobie Way of Life". I don't want to see it not be there for my children and I don't think the H16 has much life left in it in the US. I see the interest out there in what I do in a larger boat.

Matt,
Thank you for acknowledging that Hobie may look at another boat in this range.

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 Post subject: Re: Why Not the Pearl?
PostPosted: Thu Dec 11, 2014 10:31 am 
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The Pearl could be purchased in the US actually. It is on the Europe site now, so get a group together for your test region...The boat is 15,000 Euro, so about $20,000 here maybe?

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 Post subject: Re: Why Not the Pearl?
PostPosted: Thu Dec 11, 2014 1:41 pm 
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mmiller wrote:
so get a group together for your test region.


This is a high risk option to ask a group of people to purchase a boat without Hobie having any commitment to it.

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 Post subject: Re: Why Not the Pearl?
PostPosted: Thu Dec 11, 2014 2:12 pm 
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It is also a high risk option for us to design a new boat, build or stock them without buyer's commitments.

I guess it is a chicken and egg thing.

The class also has to be behind it.

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 Post subject: Re: Why Not the Pearl?
PostPosted: Thu Dec 11, 2014 5:48 pm 
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20k for the Pearl - there is the problem. too much. weighing 20k for a Pearl against 11k for a 16. I will take the "old" 16.

for what its worth wscotterwin - the 16 Worlds in Oz 2014 had the most racers in H16 Worlds history. not too shabby. perhaps the 16 aint dead.

cant make lemonade if there aint no lemons.


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 Post subject: Re: Why Not the Pearl?
PostPosted: Thu Dec 11, 2014 6:47 pm 
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gino wrote:
20k for the Pearl - there is the problem. too much.

+1

This is getting very close to a Wild Cat price. A BC dealer has a new Wild Cat for CAN $23,979.00.

http://www.westerncanoekayak.com/shop/wild-cat-hobie-cat/

After currency exchange, boarder fees, etc, this should bring back the price to about US $20,000!

I don't understand why a Pearl should at be twice H16 price. :roll: The is some 10% more fiberglass, aluminum and Dacron, centerboards, plus a few extras, but otherwise not huge difference.

I think, high cat prices are killing the sport. At least have a negative contribution to potential revival of cat sailing. There was someone on this forum who estimated, H16 price (adjusted to inflation) has doubled since the 80's. I would argue, the H16 success is relative affordability of the boat. Even now the H16 is the most affordable performance cat available as new.

Just my 2 cents.

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 Post subject: Re: Why Not the Pearl?
PostPosted: Thu Dec 11, 2014 7:03 pm 
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jackB wrote:
There was someone on this forum who estimated, H16 price (adjusted to inflation) has doubled since the 80's.

First 16 bought new in 1973 - $1,200
Third one in 1983 - $3,200
Fifth one in 2007 - $7,500
Current MSRP ~ $10,000

Adjusted for inflation:
1973 - $6,417
1983 - $7,628
2007 - $8,588

Not completely accurate of course, since the cost of the various components (resin, foam, aluminum, sailcloth and especially labor) have had wildly different inflation rates. I have also never bought a boat at MSRP. The 1983 and 2007 boats were bought in August, when the dealer was trying to move inventory.

I would suspect that the cost of labor is significantly higher (adjusted for inflation) than it was 40 years ago. So are the costs of regulatory compliance (resin and solvent emissions are tightly controlled, especially in CA).

Also consider that overhead is now spread over a much smaller production volume.

jackB wrote:
I would argue, the H16 success is relative affordability of the boat. Even now the H16 is the most affordable performance cat available as new.


Bingo. Same reason that the Wave and Getaway are good sellers. Good bang for the buck


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 Post subject: Re: Why Not the Pearl?
PostPosted: Thu Dec 11, 2014 7:20 pm 
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many will argue that the 16 is not a performance cat.

but its the most bang for your buck.

easy to rig, easy to sail, easy to repair. durable hulls. still goes fast enough to enjoy it. fantastic solo boat.

large racing class - true one design.

how long will it take to build a Pearl race class? if its competitive Hobie racing that you want, the 16 is it. if its high tech performance serious big boy racing that you want and you have cash race F18s or better.

paying over 20k for a recreational/fun sport cat puts it into another category. all of a sudden you have to baby it, coddle it, you cant drag it on sand. have to buy beach wheels, cradles, covers, etc... the racers become too serious, some of em sponsored.

slow is fast.
it aint easy going backwards.
slowyourselfdown


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