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 Post subject: Re: Right of way?
PostPosted: Sat Apr 25, 2015 7:00 pm 
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I did a little more digging and found this under the FAQs on the US Coast Guard spot for the Rules of the Road...
13. Where do Kayaks and Canoes fit into the Navigation Rules? Neither the International nor Inland Navigation Rules address "kayaks" or "canoes" per se, except in regards to "vessels under oars" in Rule 25 regarding lights. One could infer that a "vessel under oars" should be treated as a "sailing vessel" since it is permitted to display the same lights as one, but, ultimately the issue of whom "gives way" would fall to what would be "required by the ordinary practice of seamen, or by the special circumstances of the case" (Rule 2).

Rule 2 is about responsibility
Rule 2 - Responsibility

(a) Nothing in these Rules shall exonerate any vessel, or the owner, master, or crew thereof, from the consequences of any neglect to comply with these Rules or of the neglect of any precaution which may be required by the ordinary practice of seamen, or by the special circumstances of the case.

(b) In construing and complying with these Rules due regard shall be had to all dangers of navigation and collision and to any special circumstances, including the limitations of the vessels involved, which may make a departure from these Rules necessary to avoid immediate danger.

Not very helpful, right?

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 Post subject: Re: Right of way?
PostPosted: Mon Apr 27, 2015 2:41 pm 
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tpdavis473 wrote:
I did a little more digging and found this under the FAQs on the US Coast Guard spot for the Rules of the Road...
13. Where do Kayaks and Canoes fit into the Navigation Rules? Neither the International nor Inland Navigation Rules address "kayaks" or "canoes" per se, except in regards to "vessels under oars" in Rule 25 regarding lights. One could infer that a "vessel under oars" should be treated as a "sailing vessel" since it is permitted to display the same lights as one, but, ultimately the issue of whom "gives way" would fall to what would be "required by the ordinary practice of seamen, or by the special circumstances of the case" (Rule 2).

Rule 2 is about responsibility
Rule 2 - Responsibility

(a) Nothing in these Rules shall exonerate any vessel, or the owner, master, or crew thereof, from the consequences of any neglect to comply with these Rules or of the neglect of any precaution which may be required by the ordinary practice of seamen, or by the special circumstances of the case.

(b) In construing and complying with these Rules due regard shall be had to all dangers of navigation and collision and to any special circumstances, including the limitations of the vessels involved, which may make a departure from these Rules necessary to avoid immediate danger.

Not very helpful, right?


I followed up further with the USCG and got further response (without much help, tho, related to sailboat-kayak rules of engagement)...here it is
As you indicated, Navigation Rules (International - Inland), COMDTINST M16672.2D, does not specifically address kayaks, canoes, rowboats, etc. except in regards to light configurations for vessel under oars (Rule 25(d)ii). While Rule 25(d)ii provides that vessels under oars may use the same lights as a sailing vessel or shall have a white electric torch or lantern - this does not make them equal to a sailing vessel under Rule 18. It does show that vessels under oars are classed apart from power-driven vessels.

However, as defined by Rule 3, kayaks, canoes, rowboats, etc. are certainly vessels and are therefore accountable to the Navigation Rules (International - Inland). When determining the conduct of such vessels in sight of one other vessel, generally, the Navigation Rules (International - Inland) are set up so the burden is on the more maneuverable vessel to give-way to the less maneuverable vessel. Therefore, we could probably assume that a vessel under oars, due to its limited speed (or for a racing-scull its inability to quickly change direction), should expect a power-driven vessel to keep out of its way. To some degree Rule 18 backs that up in establishing Responsibilities Between Vessels where the power-driven vessel is directed to keep out of the way of most other vessels.

However, when the Navigation Rules (International - Inland) are not specific to a situation or there is uncertainty, it all boils down to Rule 2 which emphasizes the ordinary practice of seamen requiring precaution under all conditions and circumstances and not strict adherence to the rules or any other practice.

While strict adherence may not always be prudent, the rules are very precise in stating that nothing exonerates any vessel from the consequences of neglect (Rule 2). Neglect, among other things, could be unsafe speeds (Rule 6), improper lookout (Rule 5), or completely ignoring your responsibilities as prescribed by the Navigation Rules (International - Inland).


(This is me again)==The emphasis is on which vessel is less maneuverable, I believe a sailboat is probably more maneuverable than a scull or rowboat, but less maneuverable than a kayak or canoe. Consequently, I believe a kayak should be the give-way vessel in a kayak/sailboat meeting given that neither is overtaking.

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 Post subject: Re: Right of way?
PostPosted: Mon Apr 27, 2015 5:09 pm 
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I think the key is to just use a little common sense and not get so bogged down in who has the right of way. I've never had a problem with kayaks, canoes, or other paddle craft. If you keep a decent look out you can spot them well in advance and make a slight alteration to you course to avoid them - it's not like they go very fast. I would not expect someone in a kayak to get out of my way if I'm sailing a bigger, faster sail catamaran.

In fact, after many years sailing on Barnegat Bay, I have very little expectation for anyone to yield right of way regardless of whether they are on a kayak, a jet ski, or a 35 foot powerboat (NJ boaters are just as bad as NJ drivers). Keep your head on a swivel if you sail in crowded water, plan your crossings well in advance, and assume the other boat is not going to give you way. I have found that it's much less frustrating to just let the other boats pass than to get in a game of chicken over who has right of way.

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 Post subject: Re: Right of way?
PostPosted: Mon Apr 27, 2015 6:38 pm 
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I'm on the same page. I am "advertent" and keep a good lookout and maneuver to avoid early and often. That being said, though, the worst maritime disasters related to collisions that happened because two boat skippers both decided to maneuver to avoid and ended up on another collision course. Here's one example http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Halifax_Explosion GRANTED, a collision between a kayak and a sailboat is unlikely to harm more people than the kayaker. I'm especially wary in my Triak (which is a sailing kayak-similar to an Island).

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 Post subject: Re: Right of way?
PostPosted: Tue Apr 28, 2015 2:41 am 
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tpdavis473 wrote:
the worst maritime disasters related to collisions that happened because two boat skippers both decided to maneuver to avoid and ended up on another collision course.


Good point. Two of the things that I generally always try to do are 1) make eye contact with the skipper of the other boat and 2) if I do need to alter course, I do so in a distinct, well defined way so it is clear to the other skipper that I have altered my course and he should hold his course.

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 Post subject: Re: Right of way?
PostPosted: Tue Apr 28, 2015 9:03 am 
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Amazon has a good reference book for all of us: How To Avoid Huge Ships

Be sure to get the second edition since it corrects a huge error in the first edition.


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 Post subject: Re: Right of way?
PostPosted: Tue May 05, 2015 1:30 pm 
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As someone who sea kayaks as regularly as he sails, I would offer my personal opinion that a kayak is "less maneuverable" than a Hobie style sailboat.

While the kayak is capable of sharp turns, its ability to take advantage of turn is limited by it's relatively much slower velocity. A course correction on a sailboat can result in a vector that more quickly spreads out the distance between the two. However, a kayak making the same change in vector will take a lot longer to actually get out of anybodies way. He/she simply can not create the geometry as quickly

Also, there is the matter of positional awareness. On my Hobie, I can safely judge where a kayaker is going to be because, well, they are not going anywhere quickly. Alternatively, the kayaker can not as easily predict where the often much faster sailboat will be in exact relation to it's own course.

In short, even from just a purely physiological point of view, the sailboat will make a course change and can be pretty confident that it is now avoiding the limited range of the kayak. However, the kayaker gets the feeling that the "cone of attack", I'll call it, that he/she has to avoid because the sailboat can make course changes so quickly, is much much more intimidating.


Just how I see it from both angles. It has nothing to do with the rules itself. Strictly a perspective.


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 Post subject: Re: Right of way?
PostPosted: Tue May 05, 2015 2:56 pm 
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Murph_PEI wrote:
As someone who sea kayaks as regularly as he sails, I would offer my personal opinion that a kayak is "less maneuverable" than a Hobie style sailboat.

While the kayak is capable of sharp turns, its ability to take advantage of turn is limited by it's relatively much slower velocity. A course correction on a sailboat can result in a vector that more quickly spreads out the distance between the two. However, a kayak making the same change in vector will take a lot longer to actually get out of anybodies way. He/she simply can not create the geometry as quickly

Also, there is the matter of positional awareness. On my Hobie, I can safely judge where a kayaker is going to be because, well, they are not going anywhere quickly. Alternatively, the kayaker can not as easily predict where the often much faster sailboat will be in exact relation to it's own course.

In short, even from just a purely physiological point of view, the sailboat will make a course change and can be pretty confident that it is now avoiding the limited range of the kayak. However, the kayaker gets the feeling that the "cone of attack", I'll call it, that he/she has to avoid because the sailboat can make course changes so quickly, is much much more intimidating.


Just how I see it from both angles. It has nothing to do with the rules itself. Strictly a perspective.


I can see your point if the difference in velocity is substantial. But with the sailboat beating to weather while the kayak is coming at you with similar velocities (say 3 kts for the kayak (comfortable paddling)) and 6 kts or less for the sailboat (pretty typical); the sailor has few choices to avoid, fall off and go faster to hope to clear (and pray the kayaker doesn't paddle faster); Head up to go into irons to slow the boat (can be a tricky maneuver); or tack completely around 90 degrees or more (depending on the boat)--tacking stresses rigging, crew and can become a complete mess if you didn't see the kayak until late. Granted, those things would avoid the collision; but all the kayaker would have to do to avoid is slow down or coast or turn slightly toward the sailboat to pass behind. Given the limited choices the sailor has, I still think the kayaker "should" be the one to take action to avoid since his options are less radical. I certainly will take action to avoid if I see the kayak; but I think he should be looking to avoid me as well.

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 Post subject: Re: Right of way?
PostPosted: Fri May 08, 2015 7:32 am 
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Well you may be interested to know that in the professional maritime industry, BOTH vessels' masters are legally liable in case of a collision - both captains can lose their master's certificate (license) for failure to avoid a collision. The rules define right of way, but they also burden both vessels with the responsibility to avoid when a collision is imminent without immediate action. For the same reason, You don't have the right to hit another boat (or car, for that matter) that fails to yield right of way, if you could otherwise avoid it.

That being said, because of their limited speed, I always treat the man-powered vessel as the stand on vessel. As others have said, it's easy enough to avoid them. The scull boats would be abnoxious to avoid, as they can achieve some pretty good speeds, but they don't turn on a dime, so they have right of way.

Also, in the situation tpdavis described, I think pinching or falling off to avoid would both be reasonable and relatively minor course adjustments to avoid a collision. Worst case, cut the sheet and go into irons. Now you're the one restricted in ability to maneuver, and they have to avoid you! :lol:

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