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 Post subject: H16/H17 Handicaps
PostPosted: Thu Oct 09, 2014 7:45 pm 
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Joined: Tue Aug 04, 2009 8:06 pm
Posts: 27
At my club, we race a mixed fleet of cats. In recent years I (H16) have been doing quite well against Michel (H17) and this year I have won most of the races before applying the handicap. The US Portsmouth tables list the H17 at 74.0 and the H16 at 76.0, meaning the H17 owes the H16 time. This is the handicap we having been using at our club for decades.

Michel has recently found the SCHRS tables which show the H17 at 1.212 and the H16 at 1.197, meaning the H16
owes the H17 time:

http://www.schrs.com/ratings.php

His theory is that the H16 has gotten faster over the decades and that the US tables do not reflect the new reality.

So which tables better reflect the speed of the boats not the sailors?


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 Post subject: Re: H16/H17 Handicaps
PostPosted: Thu Oct 09, 2014 7:59 pm 
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Site Rank - Old Salt

Joined: Wed May 05, 2010 8:28 am
Posts: 781
Location: Clinton Lake, KS
Are you sailing the H16 with more than 285lbs of crew? If you are sailing light, the numbers are going to be WAY off in your favor.


What I have heard from top H17 sailors is that the H17 is faster right up until the H16 is double trapped and beyond. At that point the H16 is faster around a windward/leeward as the H17 guys aren't holding the boat down as well.


For a humbling experience.. Put your H16 on the line with skilled Thistle sailors in 2-5mph worth of shifty wind. :oops:

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 Post subject: Re: H16/H17 Handicaps
PostPosted: Fri Oct 10, 2014 2:48 am 
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Joined: Sun Sep 20, 2009 4:00 pm
Posts: 527
Location: Charlottesville, VA
My Hobie doesn't go near the water in 2~5! Unless I'm already out there and the wind dies...

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 Post subject: Re: H16/H17 Handicaps
PostPosted: Fri Oct 10, 2014 6:16 am 
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Joined: Tue Aug 04, 2009 8:06 pm
Posts: 27
I am usually racing at about 310 - 320 lbs crew weight and find a heavier experienced crew is much faster than a light weight newbie. The 16 does perform well in high winds.


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 Post subject: Re: H16/H17 Handicaps
PostPosted: Fri Oct 10, 2014 6:29 am 
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Site Rank - Old Salt

Joined: Mon Jul 04, 2005 10:13 am
Posts: 1021
Location: Nepean S.C. Ottawa, Canada
AT our local Fanfare regatta, last race, first day.... the winds picked up.
Bruce on his 16 smoked us, and we (SX18) beat Michel o his 17....
so weight and wind and wave height can be important factors.
Bruce will argue that it's the skill of the sailor... and who can argue?

Turkey Trot on (Canadian ) Thanksgiving Monday, Bruce, if you can make it - a fun race.

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SOLD 1989 Hobie SX18 Sail # 1947 "In Theory..."
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 Post subject: Re: H16/H17 Handicaps
PostPosted: Fri Oct 10, 2014 7:09 am 
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Joined: Mon May 09, 2005 10:25 am
Posts: 3714
Location: Jersey Shore
IMO, the overall performance between the two boats around a race course is very similar. The H17 will do better upwind and the H16 better downwind.

At least this was my experience a year or so ago when racing at one of our division regattas I was on my 17 and one of the top national H16 sailors was on his 16. The timing of the starts between the fleets worked out that during one race, I was rounding the gate right about the same time he was starting. Conditions were solid double trap and upwind I was probably pointing 5 to 10 degrees higher than he was and making better VMG. I would round the top mark and he would reel me in on the downwind leg. Then we would go around the gate and again, I'd pull back ahead going back upwind.

sm


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 Post subject: Re: H16/H17 Handicaps
PostPosted: Fri Oct 10, 2014 8:47 am 
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Joined: Fri Oct 10, 2014 8:17 am
Posts: 1
The real problem Michel, is that you are much slower than Bruce ;-)

The edge of the Hobie 17 is its capability to out point the Hobie 16. That edge has been reduced over the years with H16 skippers raking their mast far back and using the rudders as virtual daggerboards. This allows the Hobie 16 to point higher. In a gusty wind, with the H17 travelled out, it results in similar upwind courses for both boats. In the downwind leg the Hobie 16 clearly has an edge with 31% more sail area.

The handicaps are supposed to reflect race results. In that case, why the handicaps of the Hobie 16 and 17 haven't change by one iota in the last 25 years given that the boat tuning and handling have improved? Why one handicap system is in the opposite direction of the other handicap system? Can anyone shed some light?


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 Post subject: Re: H16/H17 Handicaps
PostPosted: Fri Oct 10, 2014 9:19 am 
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Joined: Mon May 09, 2005 10:25 am
Posts: 3714
Location: Jersey Shore
Michel wrote:
The handicaps are supposed to reflect race results. In that case, why the handicaps of the Hobie 16 and 17 haven't change by one iota in the last 25 years given that the boat tuning and handling have improved? Why one handicap system is in the opposite direction of the other handicap system? Can anyone shed some light?


The handicap values not only reflect race results, they depend on race results. You need a large pool of data to develop "accurate" handicap values. The problem is, the vast majority of racing done on Hobie Cats is one-design racing, not handicap racing, so there is limited data to develop and maintain accurate handicap numbers. The fact that two different handicap systems have two different ratings for the same boat just proves the point that handicap racing is inherently flawed. This is the reason why 99.9% of Hobie racers prefer one-design racing.

sm


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 Post subject: Re: H16/H17 Handicaps
PostPosted: Wed Dec 31, 2014 11:28 am 
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Joined: Tue Feb 28, 2006 10:31 pm
Posts: 171
Couldn't resist this one. Having raced both the H16 and H17 extensively, I can only speak to the observations that have been apparent racing alongside during these events, and in some cases in fun sails with the fleet during local events. We've got a lot of sailors with years of experience here at Fleet 51 in Las Vegas, sailing mainly at Lake Mead. The only Portsmouth racing I've done is at the New Years Day race in San Diego about 5 years ago. I'll start there. The race starts out quite light, maybe 3k's. The 16's do not point nearly as high as the 17 and the 17 cleared the short distance to the weather mark ahead, raced by experienced racers for most all Hobies. Then during the downwind leg, the 16's opened up in the 5-10 building breeze and passed the 17 and rounded the leeward mark about 100 yards ahead. I felt like I got pounded because the 17 had less sail area. However, during the building winds in this long course, it only took about a third of the windward leg to catch up and then proceed to horizon the 16 fleet. My come away from that is that with experienced racers, light breeze racing will likely be nearly even between the two classes, but in 12+ air the 17 will win. Now, during racing in Hobie events, this has been proven out, as well as racing alongside H18's until the winds gets over about 18k's and the H18 simply takes over. While 17's are great in over 20 knots, they don't get through the waves to weather like an H18 does. The 16 also has one problem. The assymetrical hulls have a hullspeed limit to weather and that comes into play at about 12-15k's. All these experiences were with experienced sailors racing at or near the 285 16 weight and myself about 180 on the 17.


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 Post subject: Re: H16/H17 Handicaps
PostPosted: Wed Dec 31, 2014 11:43 am 
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Joined: Tue Jul 19, 2005 6:29 pm
Posts: 2654
Location: High Point, NC
I don't sail either, but have watched them both against each other in our mixed fleet regattas. The 17, with one person on board, seems faster than the 16 with either 1 or 2 sailors on board. With 2 sailors on the 17, they seem about equal. I believe the 17 is more weight sensitive than the 16. It also seems to tack more quickly. I give it a slight edge, which is what the handicap numbers seem to indicate.

The 18 is faster than either.


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 Post subject: Re: H16/H17 Handicaps
PostPosted: Wed Dec 31, 2014 11:55 am 
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Joined: Tue Feb 28, 2006 10:31 pm
Posts: 171
Definitely agree with Tom.


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