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 Post subject: Weather Helm
PostPosted: Thu Aug 18, 2016 11:46 am 
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Joined: Sat May 22, 2010 8:31 pm
Posts: 57
Hey guys. So I just sailed for the first time sat with brand new sails Hobie 17 sport. Boat was pretty fast but noticed a bit more weather helm than I did before the new sails. I even went 1 pinhole tighter on the forestay which should have brought the mast slightly more forward creating lee helm. Any thoughts?
Thanks!


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 Post subject: Re: Weather Helm
PostPosted: Thu Aug 18, 2016 1:39 pm 
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Joined: Tue May 27, 2003 12:44 pm
Posts: 12559
Location: Oceanside, California
Hobie factory or aftermarket?

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Director of Parts and Accessory Sales
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Hobie Cat USA


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 Post subject: Re: Weather Helm
PostPosted: Thu Aug 18, 2016 1:43 pm 
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Joined: Sat Oct 04, 2014 1:30 pm
Posts: 787
Location: Benicia, CA
It's not unusual for new sails to give you more weather helm than you are used to. Sounds like you are taking the correct approach to get rid of it. You can always depower some of the main by traveling down or releasing some sheet to regain balance. You've noted better pointing, I hope?

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SeaRail 19
Triak
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Formerly Getaway with Custom Spinnakers
Formerly raced F24 Mk II


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 Post subject: Re: Weather Helm
PostPosted: Thu Aug 18, 2016 2:01 pm 
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Joined: Mon Jul 14, 2003 7:11 pm
Posts: 5165
Location: Detroit, MI
tpdavis473 wrote:
You can always depower some of the main by .... releasing some sheet to regain balance.
Not on a Hobie 17, which hates mainsail twist created by a loose mainsheet (it actually powers up the boat to a point). De-powering comes from mast rotation (ballpark), traveler (gross adjustment) and downhaul (fine adjustment).

This is especially true if you've got square-head aftermarket sails - a tight mainsheet is a must to keep the leech tight and prevent excessive twist in the head.

Come up on your shrouds one or two holes and take up another hole on the forestay and see how that helps. You may need to rake your rudders a bit more forward.


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 Post subject: Re: Weather Helm
PostPosted: Thu Aug 18, 2016 2:12 pm 
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Seriously, you are telling me that you can't depower a 17 mainsail by releasing the mainsheet? If so, this is the first o only boat I've ever heard of where that happens. I simply do not believe it.

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R/Thom
SeaRail 19
Triak
BMW C600
Formerly Getaway with Custom Spinnakers
Formerly raced F24 Mk II


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 Post subject: Re: Weather Helm
PostPosted: Thu Aug 18, 2016 6:32 pm 
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Joined: Mon Jul 14, 2003 7:11 pm
Posts: 5165
Location: Detroit, MI
tpdavis473 wrote:
Seriously, you are telling me that you can't depower a 17 mainsail by releasing the mainsheet? If so, this is the first o only boat I've ever heard of where that happens. I simply do not believe it.
If you want to shut the power off, yes - let the main out a lot. But if you crack the mainsheet a foot or two, the top of the sail loads up - a lot - and makes the boat a lot harder to control.

I pretty much know what I'm talking about here. I've raced a 17 since 1991 and won 3 North American Championships in the 17 - most recently in 2014.


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 Post subject: Re: Weather Helm
PostPosted: Fri Aug 19, 2016 2:17 am 
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Joined: Mon May 09, 2005 10:25 am
Posts: 3573
Location: Jersey Shore
The Hobie 17 helm really responds to changes in downhaul setting (particularly in trapping conditions). If you are under-downhauled, the draft will move up and aft which tends to really load up the rudders. In extreme cases this can even cause the rudder to stall and the boat will be slugging along sideways until you re-attach flow. I would definitely recommend setting up a 6:1 downhaul with adjustment lines lead out to the wings so you can adjust on the fly.

Otherwise, I would say you probably just need to tweak your rudder rake to get the boat back in balance.

sm


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 Post subject: Re: Weather Helm
PostPosted: Fri Aug 19, 2016 9:00 am 
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Joined: Sat May 22, 2010 8:31 pm
Posts: 57
Matt, Aftermarket standard pin top not square top. Love em. Shout out to Chip at Whirlwind.

tpdavis, Really points well. So well It was difficult falling off onto a broad reach. Boat kept wanting to point higher and higher. Couldn't believe how high she pointed compared to the 16's in the race. Though once on a broad reach and they got double trapped they blew by me....

mbounds, didn't know about the keeping the main super tight thanks for the tip will try it. Love to chat with you separately about sail trim and different points of sail.

srm, Will try more downhaul. I know I didn't have enough.


ALSO!! I am having the most (censored) of a time getting my sails up and that stupid ring on the hook and back off. The other day after 30 min. I had to turn the boat over on its side and disconnect the ring manually. What an awful design. Prefer my hobie 16's halyard attachment anyway of the week. TIPS?!?!? this should be another thread!


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 Post subject: Re: Weather Helm
PostPosted: Fri Aug 19, 2016 9:57 am 
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Joined: Tue May 27, 2003 12:44 pm
Posts: 12559
Location: Oceanside, California
toddpatane wrote:
ALSO!! I am having the most (censored) of a time getting my sails up and that stupid ring on the hook and back off. The other day after 30 min. I had to turn the boat over on its side and disconnect the ring manually. What an awful design. Prefer my hobie 16's halyard attachment anyway of the week. TIPS?!?!? this should be another thread!


Read my FAQ on halyard hooks... Easy once you understand the system, but could be the sail too.

http://www.hobiecat.com/forums/posting.php?mode=edit&f=18&p=981

Quote:
Locking the Hobie 17/18/20/21 Halyard:

It is best to simulate the halyard locking with the mast down so you clearly understand the system.

Then, depending on how old the boat is, be sure the hook does not have the old "flopper" stainless piece hanging on the hook. This old device caused difficulty in raising and hooking but would make it easier to release and lower.

Also, be sure that the knot tied to the ring is very low profile. A long bowline knot will hit the mast head before the ring gets to the hook.

If the ring has a small loop at the top... The line should be passed through the loop and a small knot tied. The knot (when ring and shackle are affixed to the sail) should be facing the mast. This tilts the ring closer to the mast.

Image

Then (before attaching halyard shackle to the sail) spin the halyard 3 or 4 times clockwise (looking down on the shackle). This "pre-loads" the halyard line and causes the ring to swing back towards the hook. Keep the boat into the wind and hoist. Should lock easily.

To release... fully release the downhaul and outhaul. Partially feed the sail up the luff track. Hoist with the halyard to the top till it stops, hold... rotate the aft of the mast base to starboard, hold the mast rotated, ease the halyard a few feet before releasing the mast. Lower the sail.

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Matt Miller
Director of Parts and Accessory Sales
Warranty and Technical Support
Hobie Cat USA


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 Post subject: Re: Weather Helm
PostPosted: Fri Aug 19, 2016 12:09 pm 
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Joined: Mon May 09, 2005 10:25 am
Posts: 3573
Location: Jersey Shore
There is a lot of good information out there about how to deal with the hook/ring system. Once you understand how the system is supposed to work, it really is quite simple and works very well.

On the 17, it is easiest to hoist the mainsail by standing on the ground in front of the front crossbar and facing aft. If you have a 3-piece tramp, route the halyard out of the bottom of the mast and under the front crossbar so you are pulling towards yourself. If you have an older 2 or 1 piece tramp, attach the halyard to a block on the tramp so that it can exit the bottom of the mast, go aft, and then be redirected back forward.

By standing in front of the front crossbar and facing aft, you are able to help guide the luff into the sail track easily. Then when the sail is fully raised, you can grab the mast rotation arm and easily rotate the mast right or left depending on whether you want to hook or un-hook the halyard ring.

Having the boat pointed directly into the wind is also critical for getting the ring to engage and disengage.

sm


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 Post subject: Re: Weather Helm
PostPosted: Sun Aug 21, 2016 6:28 pm 
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Joined: Sat May 22, 2010 8:31 pm
Posts: 57
Still had weather helm one more pin on the forestay and the side stays with plenty of downhaul.
I know. Time on water, time on water and dialing in. Ill be patient and get it right.
Regarding the sail. I used very liberal amount of Sailkote in the track before raising. Then raised the main from front of mast as described above with halyard under crossbar. Worked great got it up fairly quickly and attached to the hook. I preloaded the ring as Mmiller described.
Had a great sail today.
BUT.....still could not get the ring off the hook at the end of the day. Thankfully my buddy was there to lay the boat over again to get it off.
WTF am I not doing right. Could it be I have a twist shackle attaching the main to the ring or is there something else I should be using.
Thanks.


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 Post subject: Re: Weather Helm
PostPosted: Thu Aug 25, 2016 7:48 pm 
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Joined: Mon Jul 14, 2003 7:11 pm
Posts: 5165
Location: Detroit, MI
To unhook the halyard, pull the halyard to get the sail to the very top, then while standing in front of the crossbeam, grab the rotator with your left hand and rotate the mast to the left (stbd side of the boat). That rotates the hook away from the ring and you should be able to release the halyard and have the sail come down.


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