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PostPosted: Tue Jun 12, 2018 1:50 pm 
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Little nugget embedded in the post:

the riddler wrote:
That was a concept i considered but it was uncomfortable and I would still have a seat that will rip and need to be rebuilt. Hobie has the vantage seat rebuilding kit that 170 lb anglers already ripped and had to buy that kit.


Humm...

We can handle criticism... it's when things are said in context like this... it is sometime hard to tell where (why) a user is coming from.

To inform on the statement made: The Vantage mesh material had some issues early on (several years ago). We made changes to reinforce the problem areas. These would always be handled as warranty no charge if someone makes a claim.

In general we hear a lot of praise for the Vantage seats comfort and extreme adjustability. All the fish guys here would prefer to sit in the high Vantage position to see fish and then low stability for surf entry. Can't do that on the foam seats.

We hear complaints and have made changes to a lot of products from forum feedback, but repeating opinions for emphasis...

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 12, 2018 2:04 pm 
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the riddler wrote:
Do a video and post here and show us what we are doing wrong


I'm not saying that anyone did anything wrong - I was pulling a single sentence from a post to make sure that people (or just Kross) knew that there was a bottom seating position - and that the legs fold completely under - that if you keep the legs out you're in a middle high position and perhaps that was causing this instability issue that was being reported.

Here's a video link with the seat adjustment at the lowest setting: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-uLvP_XparU&t=599s&ab_channel=Hobie (from 2:30-5:30 in the video I demonstrate the seat function in detail)

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 12, 2018 2:12 pm 
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The truth about the difference (or not) in stability is in a post from this thread back in 2015:

minglett wrote:
I have three Revos.

2014 Revo 13
2015 Revo 13
2015 Revo 16

As for stability I think the 2014 Revo13 and 2015 Revo13 are pretty much on par, until the 2015's seat is raised.
Once the Vantage CT's rear kickstand is set the stability of the kayak dramatically suffers. I don't think will ever set the seat higher in the rear.

As for the 2015 Revo16 compared to the Revo13. The Revo13 is definitely more stable. I noticed that the first time out with the Revo16. However is not an earthshattering problem to me. It seems to react more quickly to off center weigh transfer, but there is no indication to me of going over. That being said, I did take it out on a large lake with a brisk wind which had some decent waves and I was a little more nervous when parallel to them compared to the Revo13.

Now, I will tell you that when I received the Revo16 I figured that it would be less stable. I definitely looked narrower. I haven't actually measured it but it looks almost 2" narrower to me.

With all that being said, I love the 2015 models with the Vantage CT seat and the nylon roller bearing drive. They are worth every extra penny.

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 12, 2018 2:16 pm 
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I'm prepared for someone to say that what I "feel" ≠ reality, but the Vantage seats on my Outfitter and Sport on the lowest setting "feels" higher and tippier than the old wet butt seat in my Outback.

I appreciate that on its lowest setting, the Vantage seat is close to the bottom of the yak, but it feels higher. Was the floor raised on the Vantage kayaks as opposed to the old models?

I know this tread is really about Revos, so sorry if my posts come across as a hijack.

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 12, 2018 2:36 pm 
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Pollo de muerte wrote:
the Vantage seats on my Outfitter and Sport on the lowest setting "feels" higher and tippier than the old wet butt seat in my Outback


The Outback is the most stable in the fleet, so that makes sense. I would expect that. Especially when comparing to the MUCH smaller Sport.

Pollo de muerte wrote:
Was the floor raised on the Vantage kayaks as opposed to the old models?


The opposite. We had to drastically lower the floors to get the CT seats to be at the same height and still be suspended off the floor.

Some of this could be the amount of sag in a specific seat. Newer stiffer material "could" hold a lighter person fractionally higher.

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 12, 2018 3:44 pm 
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mmiller wrote:
The truth about the difference (or not) in stability is in a post from this thread back in 2015:

minglett wrote:
I have three Revos.

2014 Revo 13
2015 Revo 13
2015 Revo 16

As for stability I think the 2014 Revo13 and 2015 Revo13 are pretty much on par, until the 2015's seat is raised.
Once the Vantage CT's rear kickstand is set the stability of the kayak dramatically suffers. I don't think will ever set the seat higher in the rear.

As for the 2015 Revo16 compared to the Revo13. The Revo13 is definitely more stable. I noticed that the first time out with the Revo16. However is not an earthshattering problem to me. It seems to react more quickly to off center weigh transfer, but there is no indication to me of going over. That being said, I did take it out on a large lake with a brisk wind which had some decent waves and I was a little more nervous when parallel to them compared to the Revo13.

Now, I will tell you that when I received the Revo16 I figured that it would be less stable. I definitely looked narrower. I haven't actually measured it but it looks almost 2" narrower to me.

With all that being said, I love the 2015 models with the Vantage CT seat and the nylon roller bearing drive. They are worth every extra penny.


This is from Tommy Fuccini, one of your Hobie Pro's. Talking about the difference in stability. Some of have claimed you are about a 1/2" higher other people came you are 1", and some say it's the same. It all depends on who you talk too.

http://www.stripersonline.com/surftalk/ ... t-10554283

Quote:
I went from a 2014 to a 2015 Revo.. The first few times out it felt more unstable than the 2014 but I quickly got acclimated to it. It's the same as the 2014 in following seas. I push the limit when it comes to the conditions I fish in and haven't had to skip a beat with the 2015. The seat is a heck of a lot more comfortable after a few hours of peddling. Also, in flat water it is nice to use the elevated position!


It's common talk in the kayak fishing community that the new vantage seat in the Revo 13 is just not the same. Some people use the word, "slightly" and others have said you get use to it.

It's is also common with the Revo 13, in all years is it becomes unstable in following seas. This is another common talk among kayak anglers who own the Revo 13. The majority of us will grab the paddle in these conditions.

My only request from Hobie is to give anglers, sailers, and rec paddlers, an easy option to get out of this seat. A choice. It's not just a few folks who have a problem with the seat. Let your design team figure out a way to help get the Revo series stable in following seas and address the seat. That's all we ask.


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 12, 2018 3:54 pm 
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mmiller wrote:
Little nugget embedded in the post:

the riddler wrote:
That was a concept i considered but it was uncomfortable and I would still have a seat that will rip and need to be rebuilt. Hobie has the vantage seat rebuilding kit that 170 lb anglers already ripped and had to buy that kit.


Humm...

We can handle criticism... it's when things are said in context like this... it is sometime hard to tell where (why) a user is coming from.

To inform on the statement made: The Vantage mesh material had some issues early on (several years ago). We made changes to reinforce the problem areas. These would always be handled as warranty no charge if someone makes a claim.

In general we hear a lot of praise for the Vantage seats comfort and extreme adjustability. All the fish guys here would prefer to sit in the high Vantage position to see fish and then low stability for surf entry. Can't do that on the foam seats.

We hear complaints and have made changes to a lot of products from forum feedback, but repeating opinions for emphasis...


I have no dog in the fight MM. I am just a kayak angler using your products. I'm passionate about the sport, just like others including Kross.
Yes, there will be many who enjoy the vantage seat, I am just hear to humbly ask Hobie for "A choice". That's all.

I respect other opinions on folks who like to sit high in their seats. There are others who would like to sit low and maximize the stability in the 28.5" wide Revo on open bigger water in some potentially choppy conditions. As you can see the choices for an under 30" beam platform with a pedal system is slim. Why not make it where all your buyers are completely happy?


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 12, 2018 4:29 pm 
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the riddler wrote:
Why not make it where all your buyers are completely happy?


That would be awesome! ...and we do shoot to please the highest possible number of users. Every user, water condition, wind condition, use, skill, interest, comfort vary so much that it is literally impossible. Therefore... the many models that we offer. We can only keep so many options on the table before it gets really confusing. Sometimes (always) there are compromises.

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 12, 2018 6:43 pm 
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the riddler wrote:
...I am just hear to humbly ask Hobie for "A choice". That's all.

If the front bar for the vantage seat comes out then you do have a choice as you have demonstrated, no?

the riddler wrote:
Why not make it where all your buyers are completely happy?

This is a bad joke, right?

I had an older AI and adapted a Jackson mesh seat to sit on the folded over original seat for when I wanted a higher view and more comfort. If I wanted to run without the outriggers, the Jackson seat was too high but I could flip it up and back to use the original seat underneath. It wasn't Hobie's responsibility to make their kayaks EXACTLY the way I want them; it's mine!

Early on in the Kross saga I PM'd him sympathizing with the flack he was getting from some Forum members who cannot abide thinking that their Hobie Kayaks are less than absolute perfection. I happen to agree concerning the plastic formula these kayaks are molded with. does Hobie use a softer plastic because it's cheaper, or because it handles the stresses of a Mirage drive and Outriggers better? Only Hobie knows for sure, but they are the ones doing the research and development, making the product, and taking the risk and/ or reward.

At some point though, the line between a vigorous complaint, and demanding a company accommodate your demands gets crossed, and becomes a malignant attack on their product and/ or policy. Sometimes you have to accept "no" or "we'll take it under advisement" and move on or take the initiative yourself, wouldn't you say?

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2018 2:38 am 
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Pescatoral Pursuit wrote:
the riddler wrote:
...I am just hear to humbly ask Hobie for "A choice". That's all.

If the front bar for the vantage seat comes out then you do have a choice as you have demonstrated, no?

the riddler wrote:
or take the initiative yourself, wouldn't you say?



I’ve already took the initiative to fix the problem.


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 Post subject: Crow
PostPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2018 11:03 am 
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Eating some crow here...

The engineering "intent" was for the seats to be at the same CG height and for the CT seat to be suspended above the floor to keep your butt dry. I asked engineering to review again. They found an older model Rev 13 and a new one.

We measured from the rails to the seat bottom on both using two methods. Both using a paddle shaft across from rail to rail. One simply laid across the rails and measuring the depth to the seat in a slight compressed position. Then I sat in both with the paddle shaft pressed into my hips. I sat in both several times. Measuring each side several times from the paddle shaft to the rails. What we found was that the CT seat was holding me approximately 1/4" higher. There are still some variables in mesh sag for sure and how hard I pressed the paddle into my hips, but I am confident that what some are reporting is true when they know the old Rev 13 so well.

Pretty amazing that they got it that close if you understand the engineering that went into the whole mold conversion process... and that boats shrink as they come out of the molds. It was a difficult task.

Would we make changes to the molds to lower it 1/4"? No. It is not significant and is just something to get used to as is the case with every kayak you try. It has not slowed the sales of the boat at all. It's mostly a Rev 13 connoisseur thing.

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 Post subject: Re: Crow
PostPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2018 5:48 pm 
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mmiller wrote:
Eating some crow here...

The engineering "intent" was for the seats to be at the same CG height and for the CT seat to be suspended above the floor to keep your butt dry. I asked engineering to review again. They found an older model Rev 13 and a new one.

We measured from the rails to the seat bottom on both using two methods. Both using a paddle shaft across from rail to rail. One simply laid across the rails and measuring the depth to the seat in a slight compressed position. Then I sat in both with the paddle shaft pressed into my hips. I sat in both several times. Measuring each side several times from the paddle shaft to the rails. What we found was that the CT seat was holding me approximately 1/4" higher. There are still some variables in mesh sag for sure and how hard I pressed the paddle into my hips, but I am confident that what some are reporting is true when they know the old Rev 13 so well.

Pretty amazing that they got it that close if you understand the engineering that went into the whole mold conversion process... and that boats shrink as they come out of the molds. It was a difficult task.

Would we make changes to the molds to lower it 1/4"? No. It is not significant and is just something to get used to as is the case with every kayak you try. It has not slowed the sales of the boat at all. It's mostly a Rev 13 connoisseur thing.



Thank you for doing the test. It's not eating crow. It's finding out the difference with the hobie design team. I have found removing the vantage seat and brackets, placing the pads I installed and installing a standard kayak seat the 2015 and newer Revo 13 becomes more stable. It's much lower by 1" in my calculations. I would ask your technicians to remove the side brackets and even just place the vantage seat by itself to the deck and strap it back it in. Have them take it out for a pedal.

I understand if Hobie doesn't want to spend time and money for what you say is only a "1/4". Well how about changing the molding of the side brackets to allow the vantage seat to go all the way to the bottom and sit flat on the deck? Sure someone may have a wet butt but at least they would maximize the stability of the Revo 13 and it would be a choice. You may be able to change the mold to have the seating drainage deeper.

MM, you and I both agree on one thing and if I may quote you:

Quote:
Of course... if you sit down in the well... you will be even more stable. That is a given.


This would also separate Hobie from other manufacturers in the "Lawn Chair Seat" era. You would be the first, I believe to have a lawn chair, but it can also be pinned to the deck for maximum stability.


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 15, 2018 7:02 pm 
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I have posted this before on this site, and I have to imagine others have made this suggestion, and that is how about a seat similar to the Confluence / WS Phase 3 SOT?

The best of both worlds in terms of adjustable support and low CoG. Even WS sadly jumped on the lawn chair hype train.

I tried to take a Phase 3 seat from a circa 2010 or 2011 Ride but could not find a good way to install it on my pre-lawn chair Revo 13 without mucking up my hull. I even tried a Native kayak seat but had the same concern. A Phase 3 type seat option would be sweet!

That said, my only lightweight, easy to use remedy for sore butt syndrome was to use your inflatable pad, so thanks for making that.


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 16, 2018 2:20 am 
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MMiller, is there any chance you can ask Hobie engineers why the cup holder got shallower compared to the 2014 and prior model years? It just dawned on me last night. I was wondering the reasoning for that.


Last edited by the riddler on Sat Jun 16, 2018 12:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sat Jun 16, 2018 10:57 am 
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the riddler wrote:
MMiller, is there any chance you can ask Hobie engineers why the cup holder got shallower compared to the 2014 and prior model years? It just dawned on my last night. I was wondering the reasoning for that.
In order to save MM the trouble of tracking down the engineer who redesigned all the cockpits and hope that he remembers what he did on the Revo 13 (?) 4 years ago, perhaps I can help.

During a cockpit remodel, there are 2 reasons to modify a drink holder.
1. To make it less intrusive. In this case it would likely be made shallower on the inboard side if it can't be moved outboard.
2. To facilitate drainage. In this case, the bottom might be raised relative to the cockpit floor.

In this case the floor level was changed and the seat widened. Everything else was redesigned to accommodate the new parameters. Each boat had its own arrangement.

If this is problematic holding the bottle, there is an easy fix.
Image

Image

Image

BTW, the current large bottle holder is deeper than some pre-2015 Revo 13s. With a 1/2" inside lip, my 2007 bottle holder (there was only one then) was so shallow the bottle kept falling out every time the boat tilted! 8)


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