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PostPosted: Mon Jun 17, 2019 11:26 am 
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Location: Detroit, Michigan
When setting up a Barber Hauler on a Tandem Island should the pulley be mounted to the outboard end of the AKA or the aft end of the AMA? Which would give a better sail shape for a beam reach and downwind?

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 17, 2019 8:29 pm 
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When I am looking for improved downwind sailing, I loop a 10 ft length of paracord through the ama's rear padeye, with a carabineer tied to one end. (I repeat with a 2nd cord on the other ama). I store the cord lengthwise along the ama when I don't need it (frees space for paddling).
Image

To deploy, I clip the carabineer over the main sheet pair and pull the paracord's free end to pull the carabineer out to the ama attachment point. I loop the free end over the round eye at the top of the mesh pocket. Pulling from the ama's rear gives me the best performance.
Image

This pict shows the rear of the sail:
Image

My best test was yesterday coming downwind along Pictured Rocks in Michigan's UP. We managed 4 to 6 mph in 6 to 8 mph winds (we think we had some help from currents, at times).

Here is the front of the sail (with Grand Island on starboard):
Image

Here is the rear of the sail (with Pictured Rocks in background)
Image

As an aside, the hakas work well here, to ferry our bicycle over to Grand Island to ride all the trails there:
Image


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 18, 2019 1:55 pm 
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Location: Colorado
Great use of the Haka's!

I have my attachment point on the Aka and you want it as far out as possible but I also had to move it UP so that when I wasnt using the BH (not connected to the sail but still rigged on the boat), the line to the Ama on the lee side didn't drag in the water even when tight. Especially in a little higher winds where the lee ama digs in a little.

I dont know which location is best under all conditions but this is somewhat analogous to jib sheet car on a sailboat. In lighter winds, you would position the jib sheet forward as it tightens up the leach of the sail. But in high winds, you might pull the jib sheet car back in order to open the leach of the sail. The front to back position on the TI is "sort of" like the jib sheet car track.. but I really have no idea which is best under all condition. I think both locations allow you to adjust both the pull down and the pull from the back so either method can be tuned. Both are good in that aspect.

Using another sailboat example, when you are going deep downwind, a tight vang on the main sail is used to tighten the leach so it spills less and a tight vang on a sailboat main is faster down wind (like when going wing on wing). I also dont use a caribeener around the sheet but instead hook to the clew of the sail and I think the more forward location attached to the Aka allows me to add a lot more down force to the clew (I actually usually adjust both the main sail and the BH). That more down force can be used to tighten the leach on the TI soft sail / bendy mast similar to what a tight vang does on a sailboard main.

I also experimented with this when I was just using a paddle to push out the clew of the sail for downwind. One side of the paddle is attached somewhere near the clew of the sail and the other side you are holding somehow. If you hold your end of the paddle low, it pushes UP and really opens up the leach and spills wind.. Ok down wind but not optimum. If you raise your end of the paddle, it pushes up less and closes the leach a little bit with a noticeable improvement in down wind. I thought the paddle method worked better when your end was held high but this a huge pain in the axx to do - part of the reason I stopped using the paddle.

So. which is better might depend on the conditions where used. Complete guess here since the only way to tell would be two boats in a condrolled experiment but might guess that the pull from the back might be better in lighter winds at a deep angle but I think the pull from the Aka might be better in most downwind conditions.

But.. just a guess on my part.. could be wrong.


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 18, 2019 2:16 pm 
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Location: South Louisiana
Nice. So, where/how do you cleat the line?

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2015 Hobie Tandem Island 'Trinity'
South Louisiana


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 18, 2019 9:28 pm 
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Location: Forster, NSW, Australia
walt wrote:
Great use of the Haka's!

I have my attachment point on the Aka and you want it as far out as possible but I also had to move it UP so that when I wasnt using the BH (not connected to the sail but still rigged on the boat), the line to the Ama on the lee side didn't drag in the water even when tight. Especially in a little higher winds where the lee ama digs in a little.

I dont know which location is best under all conditions but this is somewhat analogous to jib sheet car on a sailboat. In lighter winds, you would position the jib sheet forward as it tightens up the leach of the sail. But in high winds, you might pull the jib sheet car back in order to open the leach of the sail. The front to back position on the TI is "sort of" like the jib sheet car track.. but I really have no idea which is best under all condition. I think both locations allow you to adjust both the pull down and the pull from the back so either method can be tuned. Both are good in that aspect.

Using another sailboat example, when you are going deep downwind, a tight vang on the main sail is used to tighten the leach so it spills less and a tight vang on a sailboat main is faster down wind (like when going wing on wing). I also dont use a caribeener around the sheet but instead hook to the clew of the sail and I think the more forward location attached to the Aka allows me to add a lot more down force to the clew (I actually usually adjust both the main sail and the BH). That more down force can be used to tighten the leach on the TI soft sail / bendy mast similar to what a tight vang does on a sailboard main.

I also experimented with this when I was just using a paddle to push out the clew of the sail for downwind. One side of the paddle is attached somewhere near the clew of the sail and the other side you are holding somehow. If you hold your end of the paddle low, it pushes UP and really opens up the leach and spills wind.. Ok down wind but not optimum. If you raise your end of the paddle, it pushes up less and closes the leach a little bit with a noticeable improvement in down wind. I thought the paddle method worked better when your end was held high but this a huge pain in the axx to do - part of the reason I stopped using the paddle.

So. which is better might depend on the conditions where used. Complete guess here since the only way to tell would be two boats in a condrolled experiment but might guess that the pull from the back might be better in lighter winds at a deep angle but I think the pull from the Aka might be better in most downwind conditions.

But.. just a guess on my part.. could be wrong.

I still rely on the paddle for moving the mainsail clew outboard, but now lead my spinnaker sheets to a block at the rear of the amas. I then have another "floating" block on the spinnaker sheets, led to a turning block on either side of my (front) seat, leading to as cleat. I can then vary the inwards/outwards position of the spinnaker sheet, also enabling some downwards pressure on the spinnaker clew when tending towards reaching rather than downwind . Tightening or easing the spinnaker sheet also affects the shape of the spinnaker.

As regards the mainsail, I have also installed Railblaza ("hooks") on the outer rear aka, so hooking >one< part of the mainsheet provides a "halfway" method of lowering the clew without choking flow on the mainsail leech.

Half the fun is fiddling! :lol: :lol:

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2012 Tandem Island "SIC EM" with Hobie spinnaker


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 19, 2019 8:42 am 
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Quote:
Half the fun is fiddling!


Absolutely!!!! I think both attachment spots allow for lots of adjustments between the sheet and BH control lines probably reducing any performance differences.

A buddy with a 2014 hull uses the paddle for downwind.. and he is fast..


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 19, 2019 5:28 pm 
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Da Tinker wrote:
Nice. So, where/how do you cleat the line?


For our purposes, I don't cleat the free end of the line. I loop it around the post (at top center of the mesh pocket) and hold it there with a slip knot, that I can release quickly by pulling on the tag end.

We use this setup when going downwind in light winds. Once we tie it in place; we usually don't need to adjust it very often.

As you can tell, this is a "necessity is the mother of invention" approach. After holding the mainsheet out with one hand, while pedaling and trying to take pictures with the other hand, while trying to get back to camp by sunset; setting this line to hold the sail out was a "It's temporary, unless it works" approach. I like that even novices, like me, can get a lot of fun/performance with this craft.


Last edited by itiming on Wed Jun 19, 2019 5:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 19, 2019 5:46 pm 
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Thanks Tony & Walt for taking time to offer your sailing knowledge/experience. I really appreciate it.

We came to Hobie boats from a sea touring kayak and fishing background -- i.e. we had no sailing knowledge/experience. When we purchased our first Hobies (2 Pro Anglers), we added a sail to each, as it seemed like it might be fun. It was much more fun than we thought. Then we added a tandem island -- which we are really enjoying; so much so that our sea kayaks, canoes, PA's and motorboat are gathering dust.

Starting our 3rd year with the TI and we think we are getting closer to being able to understand/use the spinnaker -- your posts really help us make progress. The TI is the most versatile small watercraft we have used.


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 20, 2019 7:49 am 
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Location: Cedar Key, FL
I have nothing to add, but I just wanted to say that I love reading threads like this where "real" sailors share their knowledge.

Thanks and carry on.

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 20, 2019 9:00 pm 
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Location: Cleveland, OH
I have used both the downhaul and paddle methods. I notched the paddle blades and just insert the clew hook into the notch by pushing out. The inboard notch fits a RAM ball neck so it can mostly self-tend. The paddle leash stays on in case one or the other notch breaks free. This is what I keep coming back to because its simple and fast to undeploy, uses zero extra gear, and works from a reach down to a run. For a long non-jibing passage in steady air, I would rig the downhaul line in the optimum position. The boat would be much better with a free-standing boom like the Hoyt Rig on my monohull....

https://1drv.ms/u/s!Ak9wdPhbBswggaI13nLZTEcGRsZq9A


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 21, 2019 5:12 am 
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Excellent thread..!!!

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PostPosted: Sat Jun 22, 2019 5:42 pm 
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Da Tinker wrote:
Nice. So, where/how do you cleat the line?


Sailing over to LaPoint today, from Bayfield, WI and took the opportunity to take a couple picts to help explain where the 'hauler' lines are attached.

In the foreground is where I store the line, along the AMA (so that it doesn't interfere with paddling):
Image

In use, I attach (wrap) the free end around the post (between my foot and the chart) and clip the carabiner over the mainsheet pair:
Image

I adjust sail shape by alternately tensioning the mainsail line and the hauler line:
Image

Good sailing conditions for us today:
Image


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 23, 2019 6:38 am 
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Location: Forster, NSW, Australia
If you cut a small (1/4" square) notch in the ends of your paddle, you can easily hook it onto pne pf the knots in the small blue loose line dangling from the sail clew. This way, you are not interfering with the mainsheet, which is free to travel through the block. I just rest the inner end of the paddle against my hip.

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2012 Tandem Island "SIC EM" with Hobie spinnaker


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 23, 2019 10:28 am 
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tonystott wrote:
If you cut a small (1/4" square) notch in the ends of your paddle, you can easily hook it onto pne pf the knots in the small blue loose line dangling from the sail clew. This way, you are not interfering with the mainsheet, which is free to travel through the block. I just rest the inner end of the paddle against my hip.


Yes, the paddle w notch makes a quick, simple, efficient method, which provides another use for a necessary piece of gear. Thanks for the tip.

Being a canoeist long before trying kayaks, I got ingrained with single bladed paddles, and so use 1/2 the Hobie paddle with its T-grip; which seems too short for mainsheet positioning.


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 01, 2019 9:33 am 
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Location: South Louisiana
I used the barber hauler to the aft end of the ama this weekend, in light winds. Great improvement in down wind sail shape & performance. I rigged it as one continuous loop from the biner clip around the main sheet, down to the rear ama padeye, across to the other aft ama padeye & back to the clip. The line is long enough that I can operate it from either seat. Secure with a round turn & half hitch around the post above the mesh pocket. This releases easily with an upward tug on the working side of the line.

Draw back of the unused line drags in the water, but I found it easy enough to tuck it up under the bungee on the aft side of the aka.

Next item - figure out a good wind indicator, while keeping it simple & quick to rig.

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2015 Hobie Tandem Island 'Trinity'
South Louisiana


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