Child safety issue and regulations - Colorado State gives up

The Latest, June 14, 2007

State of Colorado surrenders after the first shot across the bow.

Below from Keith Kahler, State of Colorado Boating Program Coordinator

Hi Steve,
I contacted Hobie and received the following response:

In the kayaks you mentioned there are seats available for 2 persons in the Tandem and 3 persons in the Odyssey. We also have capacity limits which are measured in lbs. In my opinion, seat availability and capacity are 2 different things. As long as you stay below our recommended capacity you could put as many people in the kayaks as you wanted, it might not be comfortable as there may not be seats for everybody, but I've seen an adult go out on a kayak with 3 kids and everything was fine.

Not sure where you were going with your inquiry but hopefully I answered your questions. Let me know if I can be of any more help.

Greg Thomas

Hobie Cat USA

760.758.9100

www.hobiecat.com

Since the manufacturer's representative provides an "opinion" that the capacity in this case is based on the total weight and not by person, you appear to be correct in your interpretation. I can not say how well this "opinion" would stand up in a court case, but I believe we must take it at face value. In the event of a serious accident, I can still imagine questions arising during an investigation "taking into consideration rated capacities, weather, type of construction, and other existing conditions." I have also forwarded this reply to the Aurora Reservoir Law Enforcement section. I would suggest contacting them to verify that this has answered their concerns as well.
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The latest from the State of Colorado June 12, 2007

Below is the response received from Keith Kahler, Colorado Boating Program Coordinator.

#218 - PROHIBITED OPERATION
4. No person shall operate or offer for rent any vessel which is overloaded, or unseaworthy, taking into consideration rated capacities, weather, type of construction, and other existing conditions.

In your case an internet search of the Hobie Mirage Tandem identifies that the vessel is designed for two people and gear, not to exceed 550 pounds as detailed below from the website. So, even though your total weight did not exceed the 550 pounds, the number of people on board was above the manufacturers designed capacity. You may be correct about the other vessels you have noticed in operation on Aurora Reservoir and I would encourage you to inquire with the Park Manager regarding your concern that they may not be operating within designed capacity limits.

I replied with photos of the Hobie Odyssey, essentially our tandem without the Mirage drives and rudder. The Hobie site calls the Odyssey the family kayak for two adults and one child, no "seat" for the child however. I also mentioned that if there is a safety issue with rental canoes on the reservoir that might fall more witin his job description to check out.

I offered to conduct a test on the reservoir with Keith and the ranger that stopped my wife. I offered to go out on the reservoir under controlled conditions. Life jackets for all and rescue boat available. I will go out in my Mirage Tandem, Keith and the ranger can borrow two of the rental canoes and go out with the adult and two children of their choice. We will capsize the boats one at a time and see who is out of the water and underway the fastest. I have also offered the news media to video tape the results. I will say now that the safe boat is the one that can self-rescue the quickest. I have a good idea what the results will be.

I also returned to Keith the below statement from the Colorado online boat safety study guide.

1.4.3 Person Capacity:
Manufacturers take a number of variables into account when determining the maximum person capacity for a boat (which is displayed on the capacity plate). The maximum person capacity is a guideline. Keep in mind that most manufacturers assume an average weight per person of 150 lbs. If you have passengers over or under 150 lbs - you should adjust the maximum person capacity accordingly.

I pointed out to Keith that all ratings for Hobie kayaks state "Capacity: so many pounds" . There is none that state "Capacity: so many persons"

Stay tuned, more to come from the land of requlatory endeavors, I am sure.

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Original post below.

This Memorial weekend my wife was in our Mirage Tandem on Aurora Reservoir, CO.

She (105 pounds) was in the rear seat. Behind her on the rear deck was a 10 year old (75 pounds). In the front seat was an 11 year old (90 pounds). All were wearing life jackets. Total weight was well within the rating for the Mirage Tandem.

A park ranger instructed my wife to return to shore stating the kayak only had two seats and could not carry more persons than that. He also was concerned that the rear deck would allow a kid to easily fall overboard. And if that happened it would not be noticed by my wife since she would be facing forward. He was also concerned a person on the rear deck could become entangled in the bungee cordage on the deck.

I had considered whether to allow kids on the rear deck in the past and did not see a problem as long as the deck was still well above the water line and the kayak was reasonably balanced. It was in this condition.

I can find no state regulation concening seating in kayaks - only the overall weight limit for passengers.

At the same reservoir there is a canoe rental operation. I regularly see two adults in the canoes on the seats with two children sitting on the portage yoke bars , not in seats. I have never seen a ranger force them to shore.

Has anyone else had a similar situation? What was the outcome?

Thanks!

A direct result of the sue-happy nation we live in.

I have a sport at our camp that sometimes seconds as a bus transport. The idea is to see how many can get onto the yak without capsizing. So far we have been able to get 1 adult and 5 kids (ages 6-12) on it and go about 50 yards. Of course all have vests on and there is always an adult to supervise. My youngest nephew loves to sit in the back of the sport when we go out for trips. He will often just jump in or fall off when it starts to get hot. There is no way one wouldn't notice a person falling off from the back. Occasionally, I will have him sit right in front of me so he can peddle/paddle too. Maybe if your children are small enough, one can sit in the seat in front and the other in front of your lap. I just can't imagine anyone would have a problem with that. If so, I am not sure what they could do to stop you??

I received a reply from the state official in charge of Colorado State boating regulations. Their position is that if the manufacturer Hobie represents this kayak as a two person kayak then it is operating in an unsafe condition by having more than two persons aboard, regardless of the weight limit. Apparently it is OK to operate their rental canoes with four people aboard and only two seats because the manufacturer of the canoes does not state anything about seating capacity. Everyone feel safer now? Regulations win out over common sense again.

Put a seat in the back.

http://kfs.infopop.cc/eve/forums/a/tpc/ ... 8281058883

Second pic.

I've been wondering the same thing since a thread on the Coasties coming out and harassing someone that was reported of having a baby aboard... WTF... Talk about a law suit... get pic's of said canoe's with more than two people and get a written warning next time said officials make you return to shore...