ProAngler sinking issue

ProAngler Owners:

1) You might want to change out the front hatch gaskets to taller wider gaskets..... and have a bilge pump.
And 2) make some pool noodle plugs for any empty rod tubes.

1) Front hatch can leak water in fast if capsized and PA can nosedive, and pitch you out again after uprighted and re-entered due to water weight shifting up front/inside.

2) Rodholders also hold water weight since they slant down towards the bow, instead of slanting to drain into the cockpit and out the scuppers.

Easy solutions/upgrades.
http://www.kayakfishingstuff.com/commun ... st&t=71665
Psycoclown furnished a solution for sealing front hatch properly, and sifisto furnished a rod holder tube plug solution.

This post isn't meant to knock the PA, I love it, just to advise of some upgrades people can make easily for more safety.

Let's clarify that issue please.

1. Do the rod holders slant down to the bow when the PA is upright?

OR


2. Slant down to the bow when huli? (turned turtle)

The first is the minor issue. True your carrying some water around when upright. But water will only flood to the huli waterline when a huli occurs. Air is trapped in the bow tube extremeties..

The second is major as flooding has occurred below the huli waterline and may make it more difficult to upright as the whole tube is subject to filling from incoming waves.

In either case you need a plug for the holes with or without rods in rough waters that could flip you..

Sifistro on KFS has provided a plug solution for the no rod situation. Needs some doctoring, but it will be solved quickly.

But you need one to prevent flooding during a huli when rods are in the tubes.

A custom tapered closed cell or pool noddle material with a slit to the middle might do the trick. The problem is getting a tapered fit. and a distance typical to various rod lengths that permits insertion between guides. Difficult to construct on a homemade basis. But I bet Hobie could get something done that would pay for itself fairly quickly.

A simple solution would also be required to "lock" the rods in place. Maybe some sort of locking strap, bungy over the rod at the rear rod member support (terminology?)

If you have problems understanding this draw heavy lines on a piece of paper including a vertical arrow at the bow. Then fold the paper down so you can see the various lines on the reverse side of the paper (the arrow should point down).

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RPB, thanks for bringing this over. This involves the capsize and partial sinking of a PA by an inexperienced kayaker. I'm glad everything turned out OK except for all the fishing gear he lost. No doubt he'll invest in some tethers next time.

The failure of the front hatch seal seemed to be the KFS forum's focus as the cause. I noticed one small detail though -- the victim ("Caped Crusader") had his center hatch open when the boat capsized. Here's his statement:

"...that's a great idea. I'm gonna try that thanks? Wha'd you do about the middle hatch? When I went over I of course didn't have time to even seal that closed. So it took on water first. "

I suspect that was his biggest problem and a vivid reminder to us all to keep our hatches closed as SOP.

Two good points were brought out by Psychoclown (who had the excellent foresight to check his boat out before going out). His front hatch leaked substantially and the rod tube holders don't drain. He came up with an excellent fix which hopefully he will post here as a how-to.

Dan, the rod tubes angle down when the boat is upright to facilitate insertion and removal of the rods. They probably hold 1 to 2 qts. each in their mounted position. As Psychoclown pointed out they are sealed and do not leak into the hull. In a boat that size, I don't see it as that much of an issue since that is not enough water to destabilize the boat and would not occur except in the rare capsize. In the scheme of things it's a secondary priority not related to safety, unlike proper sealing of the hatches. (IMO).

Well it looks like you agree with me when the PA is upright as I said:


Regarding a huli then for downward slanted tubes upright:
(add...) thus tubes can not flood completely as they could slanted down when huli (upward when upright).

I missed the part about the hatch being open. I agree that's a big no no. The seal it appears also needs to be addressed per psycho's pool test. Surprised that poor a seal got by Hobie.

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Roadrunner thanks for pointing that out, I went back and saw that middle hatch he wrote about in a later reply, He should have mentioned that his middle hatch was open in the original post probably.





Caped Crusader "the middle hatch? When I went over I of course didn't have time to even seal that closed. So it took on water first."

Im getting no head way on the KFS fourm. People are too quick to blame the craft. If you read though the pages he also stated he lost both liners, both front and center. My guess is that the front hatch was open too and the PA took on water fast. Open the hatches on any craft and this will happen.

He also was fighting himself with the waders, i held off on useing mine untill i had all safty gear.

EZRider -
I agree with you on the KFS forum. It always seems to degrade to Hobie bashing. I am in the process of deciding which Hobie to buy
as my next kayak, because of a shoulder injury that makes long paddles suck. Plus I have always thought it would be great to be able to cast and peddle at the same time. Why so many look for every opportunity to jump in and bash is beyond me. Being 6' 5" and enjoying comfort more , I am probably going with the PA for use in bay and lake, with my Tarpon cotinueing to handle surf launches.. Caped Crusader had an unfortunate
accident, and was lucky to get out of it. This may have alerted others to problems with water getting in through the front hatch, and if Hobie is as good as they seem to be, I am sure a retrofit seal kit isn't far off. What is bothering me is the inference by those that are now jumping on this incident, that the PA is inherently lacking secondary stability, comparing it to a flat bottom jonboat. From the reviews I have read from yourself, RoadRunner, silfisto,Barrell, etc. this
doesn't seem to be the case. I look at the design as more of a catamaran, not as flat bottom as stated. I am sure
that the Adventure or Revo are better choices if planning to head offshore in rough conditions, but I am also pretty sure that Hobie knew these boats would be used in saltwater, and did not design them with mirror flat small freshwater lakes in mind. I would love to hear Roadrunners thoughts on the stability issue, to counter those now posting that this boat is going to "kill" someone. Again EZRider, and others, thanks for continueing to keep us posted as you use your new boats.
Hope to see you at JBay next year.

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The more I learn, the more I realize how little I know

Hobie, located in Oceanside, probably does most of their testing in the ocean and salt water environment.

In the larger kayaking community there are those who don't like Hobie's "maverick" Mirage Drive and somehow feel threatened by Hobie's success in the kayaking world. KFS seems to harbor a few groupies who get their rocks off offering Hobie advise and commentary without ever having tried out the product, even to the point of faking problems. That shows a basic lack of integrity which unfortunately works to the detriment of those with honest and genuine product questions, concerns or needs for help solving a problem.

Regarding stability of the Pro Angler: any boat can be flipped under the right circumstances. Additionally, swamped boats are unstable (without internal baffles) because of the unrestricted water movement within them constantly shifting the center of balance. That said, the PA is easily the most stable of any of the Hobie hardshell kayaks and the only one of them that you can actually walk around on. After a capsize, the bow is not the best location for reboarding; rounded and narrow, it is the least stable component of the boat. A boarder approaching from this direction can easily depress the bow, lift the stabilizing stern and have a difficult time regaining his position. Add sloshing water and it would be very difficult. Relatively low and broad, the stern would be a much better choice and it also keeps any unsecured or leaking hatches out of the water. In this recent mishap, I think there was an unfortunate combination of events and choices. But then, that's how it usually happens.

See this is just it. I spent some time with mine in chest high water in a calm lagoon not long after getting it. All hatches latched i fliped it alot. Righting it from the stern and boarding from the stern brought little water in.

In a recent tourny here there were big swells. 3' plus. I did take some sidways as well as from stern to bow. If you alow your body to move and roll with the big ones its no problem. When fighting a fish and not paying attention well there ya go. I fish the same area with a 16' canoe, fliped it many times also. One thing i cant stress enough is to make sure "anyone" is physicaly fit. Can you swim a mile or so in the salt? with waves? Also dont skip on safty gear. I saw too much of this already.

Interesting comment. I also capsized the PA to show off its new rudder and didn't notice any unusual water entry through the closed hatches. Regardless of tightness of the hatch seal, where does the air escape so that significant water can come coursing in?

I believe Psychoclown is the only one so far who seems to have experienced significant water intrusion issues with the bow hatch closed. When describing his shakedown capsizing exercise (May 7) he made no mention of water entry problems at that time however. Perhaps he thought it was off topic or no sweat for him to remedy??

I took a Revo out yesterday and capsized it for a couple of minutes -- picked up about 1 1/2 pints through the front hatch -- about the same amount as with the PA. I doubt any of the large hatches are designed to be waterproof, but water repellent in case of capsize.

This has been an excellent topic, not only for Hobie to review and improve the PA hatch integrity if appropriate, but to evaluate re-entry techniques for this boat. It also serves as a great reminder for us all to review our personal limitations and that of our equipment.

One of his posts stated he did not have time to latch the center hatch as he was going over.

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Mark
07 Ivory Dune Adventure
http://www.newenglandkayakfishing.com
http://www.aldenofsunapee.com/

[quote="Roadrunner"]

I believe Psychoclown is the only one so far who seems to have experienced significant water intrusion issues with the bow hatch closed. When describing his shakedown capsizing exercise (May 7) he made no mention of water entry problems at that time however. Perhaps he thought it was off topic or no sweat for him to remedy??


Sorry Roadrunner but I did post this on April 17 2009

Nope, i flipped the Pro Angler in 13 feet of water As i mentioned I did it on purpose to see how hard it would be to right it and do a reentry.
It takes on water through that front hatch so once you do get it righted, your gonna contend with it listing to one side or the other until you either hand pump out that water or sponge it out. (I think i might have figured out a way to keep that front hatch from allowing so much water in in the event of a flip. But i've got some testing to do and will let u guys know after the testing)
To right it, you either swim up to the bow or stern, pull yourself onto the belly and scoot up towards the middle where you reach across and grab the far rail of the boat once you grab on, slip back into the water while still holing on and your weight will flip the boat back over. If your a smaller person you may need to put your knee into it while holdin the rail. Luna; in answer to your question, it aint easy to right it but it aint hard either. you just gota know it aint like flippin any of the narrower kayaks!



I had already spoke of it in an earlier post in the kayak fishing section, So I didn't find it necessary to keep reffering to it. And as you said I didn't find it pertinent to the question.

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U BEEN CLOWNED

Psycoclown, is that with the hatches closed? I did notice that if i just place the liner in it does not seal at the front. it leaves a gap btween the liner and inside of the hull. If i place the liner front side first then the back it seals it. This is also how i tested it. All my test were with the hatches closed. Like RR said it seemed like the air kept most of the water out. Out of all of the times i fliped it i only got a sponge and a half of water, most of it was in the liner.

I wonder if Hobie changed the seal on the hatches at one point? It just seems odd that much water is getting inside the hull.

Glad "Caped Crusader" is OK.

You guys know we pay attention, but to be sure you know... I have copied this forum link to our factory, engineers and others here so they are aware of the many helpful comments made here. If appropriate, we can apply this information to our manuals and equipment recommendations.

Most importantly, This is a reminder about safety...

Since you can't choose when to have an accident, you have to be prepared and take precautions. Know your limits in various conditions and choose not to go out in conditions you are not completely comfortable, WEAR your PFD, dress appropriately assuming the worst case scenario, know how to right and then re-mount your boat, keep hatches closed and lashed when not in use.

Reality is... a capsize is possible on each and every kayak... all brands, on any boat for that matter. Sit-on-tops, like the Pro Angler, are certainly safer when considering a capsize issue than other styles of open kayak, canoe or boats, because of the enclosed hull chamber. Having a hatch open during a capsize defeats that closed chamber advantage.

I will continue to monitor the many responses and pass along relevant information to our staff here.

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Matt Miller
Former - Director of Parts and Accessory Sales
Warranty and Technical Support
Hobie Cat USA
(Retired 11/7/2022)

Yes, EZRider. The hatch was closed with the plastic liner inside. I did notice that it sealed better without the bucket(liner).
That was something i noticed on my PA. I fixed it and was happy with the results.

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U BEEN CLOWNED