Outback Kayak Flooded but Floating

Here is a worrisome site that I encountered. I trust and own Hobie products so I wonder if this was "pilot error". The kayak was flooded but floating.

http://www.wsvn.com/story/27990061/fish ... lauderdale

No indication of an issue with the kayak it'self. He is quoted as saying a fish he had hooked pulled him over. My guess?... likely he was fishing with a hatch open.

Another good reason why we put positive flotation in the hulls... and why you need to WEAR a PFD!

_________________
Matt Miller
Former - Director of Parts and Accessory Sales
Warranty and Technical Support
Hobie Cat USA
(Retired 11/7/2022)

Also a good reason to actually practice reentry. I've reentered all of my kayaks and found I can't do it without a paddle float - even the SOTs. With the paddle float it's easy as pie - I just have to be sure I take it with me.

The one caveat I have is that I've never practiced reentry in rough conditions. Of course that's probably when I'd fall out, so perhaps I ought to get with a few others and do that sometime...!

It is also why I always question elevated Hobie Outback replacement seating in older models as disturbing the righting moment and thus the stability when least expected. The 2015 models I don't have an issue with because of the changes made to the floor to compensate for the new seat. Having said that, it is also why this forum is so important as an informational tool for all of us. Thanks for sharing!

We've been discussing it since Friday on the Hobie Kayak Fishing group on Facebook and Florida Sportsman forums.
We think he flipped it with the hatch open like Matt said.

Couple other points:
- From the looks of it, its a pre-2015 Revolution, barely kept afloat by the foam blocks Hobie puts in there.
- Kayaker was from the Gulf coast of Florida fishing the Atlantic side (unfamiliar waters)
- He went solo
- No PFD in sight
- No bilge pump?
- No Cellphone or VHF radio?

This guy was totally unprepared for offshore kayak fishing and is lucky to be alive.

Also, if you cannot re-enter your kayak (don't know how or physical limitation), you have no business offshore.

This is why you never ever head into open water without a bilge pump. I always wonder what people are thinking when they do.

And a fish pulled him over? Wow... I hooked up to a humpback whale in an Adventure once and even that wasn't enough to pull me over, and it was moving very fast. This just one (of many) reason why the drag should never be locked.

_________________
Kayak Fishing Specialist: SLH
https://slhobie.com.au

^^^ this!

Many good suggestions! Taking a closer look at this may provide us with some good guidance as to how we might deal with a situation like this.

Here's what we know:
-- The boat is a Revo 11 (apparent by the shape of the stern and position of the rear hatch relative to the stern).
-- Front hatch is closed but unlatched (bungees not visible across top). It obviously has been opened.
-- The man is waving a white bucket.
-- There is no seat or life vest visible.
-- The ocean (at the time of rescue) is reported as choppy.

Here's what we can infer:
-- The bucket is likely a Hobie gear bucket that came from the center hatch.
-- The man has been bailing -- would have had to open the front hatch to do this with his bucket.
-- The seat and possibly his life vest are in the bow of the boat in an unsuccessful effort to prop the bow up enough to bail (not a bad thought!). The bow rides like it has some flotation in it (Hobie does not locate their flotation there. See pic below).

Here's a question: Does anybody think self rescue is possible at this point? If so, how would you do it?

Here are some interesting pics about capsizing with a center hatch open"

Center hatch open.


Hatch is above water line upside down and when righting. Very little water enters.


Boat takes a lengthy deliberate effort to fill with center hatch open. Becomes unstable and impossible to stay on depending on water conditions with as little as 30 gallons. Here boat is about 60 to 70% full and this guy is about to capsize -- again, even in calm water.


This boat is going nowhere. Trapped air in hull provides majority of buoyancy.

Back to the story....
Contrary to what was reported (advisable to take 3rd hand and media accounts with a grain of salt), here's what I suspect:
-- He was fishing, not paying attention, gets capsized by a rogue swell while off balance. Front hatch probably closed but not secured.
-- He gets back on (he's young and in decent shape -- wouldn't take many tries to figure this out at worst), scooting forward, tries to bail through front hatch. Boat is unstable at this point, he gets tossed again. Each succeeding attempt he fares worse until his boat fills up and becomes uninhabitable in short order.
-- He continues his efforts from the water but the bow is awash in the choppy sea, even with added buoyancy. He can't keep up with it -- is doomed.

What did he do right?
-- stayed with his boat vs. swimming for shore
-- finding the "bucket" and apparently bailing
-- had the presence of mind after 2 hours to notice an approaching boat and signal.

Did he have a phone? What 20 something year old goes anywhere without their phone? Likely got lost overboard or got wet.
Did he have a life vest? Good chance. It could have been in the bow or on him (captain said he would stay afloat but face down eventually). If his wet shirt was removed to dry off, the vest would have had to come off first. No mention otherwise.
Did he know the area? Likely, and has probably done all this before successfully. Could have lived there in past and visiting relatives.

Conclusion -- I don't think he necessarily did such a bad job for a 20 something year old. He just got in over his head, didn't understand the instability of a partially filled boat. Did anybody else here?

Final question to ponder. When and how would you use a bilge pump in this situation? You need two hands and an open hatch to use most pumps. When the boat became unstable, the pump would have been useless -- unless you were clever enough to mount the pump outside the hull interior and have a through-hull dedicated mount (bottom of a cup holder is a good place) that would allow the operation of the pump one handed from the water and with all hatches closed. Carrying a pump is not enough without a proven plan of action!

Hopefully this young man's experience becomes more than a reminder in what equipment to carry, but how to survive in a similar situation if a rescue vessel doesn't come along! These things always happen unexpectedly and at the wrong time and we don't always have the ideal equipment or skill to use it. Something to think about and commit to some realistic practice.

It appears to me that sit-on-top kayaks rarely get much water in them. When they do, the water seems to get in either via a crack in the hull, or through an open hatch. But even if sit-on-top kayaks rarely get much water in them, kayakers need to be prepared to handle the situation if it happens.

A mechanical bilge pump is one way to get water out of a kayak. If you get a couple of gallons of water in a sit-on-top kayak, and the water is calm enough that it's safe to open a hatch, you can pump the water out of the kayak with a bilge pump. But if the kayak is pretty much full of water, it may be very difficult to pump the water out the kayak with a bilge pump, or to bail water out of the kayak with a container, because the kayak will sitting low in the water and pretty unstable, so if you open a hatch, more water may slosh into the kayak via the hatch. If other kayakers are in the area they can turn the kayak over, pull it up on the noses of their kayaks, and drain it out. But a solo kayaker in a swamped sit-on-top may have great difficulty removing the water from the kayak.

Putting extra flotation in a kayak in the form of foam or air bags will reduce the amount of water which can get into a kayak, and will keep the kayak afloat even if it gets filled with water.

I've been mulling over ways to drain water out of a kayak without opening a hatch. Does anybody have any suggestions about how to do that? One possibility would be to mount a mechanical bilge pump permanently in the hull of the kayak, with a suction hose which runs to the low point inside the kayak. Another possibility would be to mount a fitting in the hull of the kayak which you can attach a bilge pump to, with a permanent suction hose which runs to the low point inside the kayak.

Holy Moley Roadrunner!
I honestly never thought about it as much as you did and your illustrations really drive your points home. I kinda feel bad for berating the guy now
Do you mind if I repost your response to my Florida Sportsman forum group? I feel like there were a lot of negative responses (like mine) on that forum and I would like to share your wisdom.

Not at all! It's easy to second guess someone's actions when we have the leisure to re-think the course of events, but when it's happening in real time the pucker factor can be overwhelming -- it can be hard to keep from panicking. I think the kid's actions played a significant part in his survival. If I'm in a situation like that I hope I can be as resourceful!

P.S. As a last ditch effort he MAY have been able to invert the boat, open a hatch and use his bucket to scoop air into the hull. That would displace water about as fast as bailing. The air would rise, forcing the water out. It would be a slow process -- the question would be whether he could remove enough water before hypothermia gets him. Under the circumstances it would be his only option (that I can come up with). Who would think of it though under the stress of the event?

I just want to add two cents.

The front hatches are not the most water tight design. They are only held closed by bungees and rest on a rubber seal.
I was fishing in the Bay and a guy in a used revolution that he had just bought capsized. He turtled reaching for something and since it was his first time in the revolution he was not familiar with the COG.

His hatch was closed but he took water in the front hatch and it opened upon righting the kayak. The bungees were apparently weak. He got enough water in that he was not able to get back inside and be stable without going over again. After after a few attempts to reenter failed and more water flooded the kayak I got to him and we brought his kayak to the shoreline and he was able to turn it over and empty it while standing in shallow water.
Fortunately we were just 50 yards off the shore in the Bay. In open ocean or rough conditions that would have been a totally different scenario.

I have two revolutions and I have had to replace the hatch bungees and hatch seals on both of them. With age the bungees get weak even though they keep the hatch closed they can apparently stretch when the lid fills with water (like a bowl) when the kayak is upside down and you try to right it.

The gasket seal can also come apart separating from the metal 'U' channel that holds it to the hatch rim. This too can lead to water entering under the front hatch from waves rolling over the bow. I took on several gallons of water under the front hatch due to a separated seal. Wondered why my kayak got slow.

1. Before venturing out anywhere inshore or offshore CHECK your equipment including all hatch seals and bungees for tension.
2. Periodically replace front hatch bungees and hatch seal at first sign of loss of tension or you see a split in the hatch seal.

Revo

_________________
I would rather be kayaking and think about work than to be at work thinking about kayaking.
A Thrill Ride is being dragged around in your kayak for 40 minutes by an extremely large fish.

One more thing.

My revolutions are older models 2008 and 2010. I keep 6 fun noodles inside the hulls for added floatation. 3 each side taped together and along the sides inside the hull. The newer models Hobie is apparently adding floatation in the hulls.

Revo

_________________
I would rather be kayaking and think about work than to be at work thinking about kayaking.
A Thrill Ride is being dragged around in your kayak for 40 minutes by an extremely large fish.

Hey Revo, I guess I got lucky that time I capsized when we were at Morningside!

But you know, your hatch remark reminded me about this thread I started a while back:
http://www.hobiecat.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=52868

That front hatch, can certainly be an Achilles heel if its not taken care of or if conditions are bad enough to cover it in water.

My front hatch (Revo 11) doesn't seal either. It is lifted off its seal in the front in order to open correctly. If I lower the hinge point, the front hatch lip tries to flip the gasket off its mount when pivoting open. It would need to be redesigned to become leak proof.

Although it leaks readily, the amount of water intrusion is relatively small and harmless, even on capsize -- nothing more than annoying. Some good ideas on your link showing how to keep it much drier.