Best model for traveling upstream?

I am planning on paddling up the Missouri River this summer, from St. Louis to at least Three Forks, Montana. I am thinking of using a Hobie kayak for this trip to take advantage of the Mirage drive and sail options.

Probably the biggest challenge will be the current, so of course I'll often be hugging the shore in shallow water. The next biggest might be the wind and waves on the big lakes. The sail and Mirage drive should shine there.

I pack fairly light but will still have a moderate amount of gear.

Which model would you pick, and why?

I've canoed just about all of the moving water sections of the Missouri between Three Forks and the Fred Robinson Bridge (i.e. Fort Peck Reservoir), and I've done many unsupported wilderness whitewater kayak trips in the 1-2 week range. In general, a sit-on-top kayak would work quite well for a float down the Missouri. There's plenty of room for the gear which you'll need. I'd choose a 13' Revolution, particularly if you attempt to do the upriver trip. It's a little faster than an outback, and more maneuverable than the 16' Revolution.

I have four suggestions about your proposed upstream trip on the Missouri:

(1) Don't try to use a Mirage Drive in the moving sections of the Missouri, going upstream or going downstream. If you use a Mirage Drive in shallow moving water, eventually you're going to hit bottom with your fins and damage or destroy your Mirage Drive. You can use a Mirage Drive in sections of the Missouri which are impounded by dams, such as Fort Peck Reservoir and the reservoirs around Helena. And there may be deep moving sections of the river above St. Louis where you might get away with using a Mirage Drive. But if you try to use a Mirage Drive in most of the moving sections of the Missouri, you'll be sorry. Pull out your Mirage Drive, stick the plug in the hole, and paddle those sections.

(2) Do the float downstream, not upstream. The Missouri is a flat water river, except for the section around Great Falls, but it moves along pretty quickly, particularly in the spring. It would be real fun to float the Missouri from Three Forks to St. Louis. If you try to kayak up the river, you'll be fighting for every inch, and it won't be very fun.

(3) There are no services between Fort Benton and Fort Peck Dam, which is a pretty long stretch of river and reservoir. Whether you're going upstream or downstream, you'll probably need to set up one or more food caches along this section.

(4) Talk with boaters who are familiar with Fort Peck Reservoir about the kind of wind and waves which you can expect to encounter on that reservoir. When packing food, assume that you might need to sit out a couple of windy days on the reservoir. Also inquire about where the water stops moving in the upper end of Fort Peck Reservoir, below Fred Robinson Bridge. This will be useful information whether you are heading upstream or downstream. I don't know because I haven't floated below Fred Robinson Bridge.

Thanks for your help, pmmpete.

On thing I should mention is I'm following the Lewis and Clark Trail all the way to the Pacific, that's why I decided to paddle the Missouri upstream.

Good advice on pulling the Mirage Drive in some sections. I was planning to use the Mirage Drive almost exclusively on the lakes. Apparently there are about 800 miles of lakes, total.


An expert told me I'd want a foot controlled rudder when I was paddling upstream in the shallows in the current so I could take advantage of every little bit of eddy or slower water. Is there a way to switch the Revo rudder between hand and foot control?

Also, how much drag would there be paddling a Revo 13 vs 16, or either vs a more conventional touring kayak?

If the water is too shallow to safely use a Mirage Drive, it's also too shallow to safely use a rudder. You can bust a rudder on the bottom just as easily as you can bust a Mirage Drive. Fortunately Mirage Drive kayaks have a subtle rocker so their rudder will turn them easily. As a result, while they track pretty well, it's easy to turn them using your paddle. So when you aren't in a reservoir or other deep section of the river, leave the rudder up and paddle the kayak. You'll have plenty of maneuverability to handle a flat water river.

You can buy sit-inside sea kayaks which are longer and narrower than any of the Hobie kayaks, and which can be paddled faster than the Hobie kayaks can be paddled, although the Hobie kayaks can all be pedaled considerably faster and with less effort than most kayakers can paddle a sea kayak. However, it'll be more of a hassle to pack your gear in a sit-inside kayak. An advantage of a sit-on-top kayak is that you can just plop dry bags into the rear cargo area and the front hatch, and you're good to go. A sit-inside kayak is a lot more finicky to pack. I have 31 years of whitewater kayaking experience, and have done many long unsupported whitewater kayak trips, so I'm used to packing and paddling sit-inside kayaks. Nevertheless, I think a Hobie or some other sit-on-top kayak would be a good choice for your proposed trip.

Because Hobie kayaks have some rocker, I think they would be pretty good choices for paddling on the Missouri. I have an Ocean Kayak Trident which is an excellent kayak, suitable for use in the open ocean, but which wouldn't work as well on the Missouri as a Hobie because it has too much rocker. In fact, it has negative rocker; the center of the keel is higher than the bow and stern. As a result, it takes many strokes on one side to turn the Trident, and as you come out of an eddy into moving water, that water will swing a Trident's nose downstream much harder than it will swing a Revolution's nose downstream. It definitely is not a nimble fast-turning kayak. Any of the Hobies would be more maneuverable.

A 16' Revolution would be faster than a 13' Revolution when being pedaled across reservoirs, and would have more room for gear. And all the Hobies turn very rapidly when being pedaled. I don't know how the maneuverability of the 13' and 16' Revolution compare when being paddled. I suggest that you paddle both of them and decide if the 16' Revolution is too much slower turning when being paddled than the 13' Revolution.

I'll say it again: Paddling upstream is going to suck. It'll be hard work, you'll hate it, and you'll go slowly. Paddling downstream would be way more fun, and way faster. Remember, Lewis and Clark paddled downstream on their way back to St. Louis!

"If the water is too shallow to safely use a Mirage Drive, it's also too shallow to safely use a rudder."

Interesting. I've never used a rudder, I didn't realize it stuck down that far.

I really appreciate the time you've taken to share your knowledge, pmmpete.

Certainly fins stick down further than a rudder. But if you are in moving water which is shallow enough that you could hit your Mirage Drive's fins on a rock or a gravel bar, you are also at risk of hitting your rudder on a rock or a gravel bar.

When you're pedaling a Mirage Drive around in a lake, if you enter a shallow area you can flutter the fins of your Mirage Drive up against the bottom of your kayak, and you will usually have plenty of time to pull up your rudder before it hits bottom. In moving water, particularly if the water is muddy, it may be difficult to tell how deep the water is in general, and it may be difficult to tell that a rock or other obstruction is sticking up off the bottom. But a sudden bang, crunch, and jolt as your kayak gets swept over an underwater obstruction or a shoaling bottom, busting your Mirage Drive and/or your rudder, will tell you that you should not have been using those pieces of equipment. This kind of mistake is an expensive mistake, and can screw up your day. I don't use a Mirage Drive and rudder in moving water unless the water is reliably deeper than 3 feet. If the river is likely to get any shallower, I use a paddle kayak, not a Mirage Drive kayak.

There are pictures I took on a 4-day kayak fishing trip on the Selway River in Idaho at http://www.northwestkayakanglers.com/in ... ic=13913.0 , and pictures I took on a 6-day kayak fishing trip on the Middle Fork of the Salmon River in Idaho at http://www.northwestkayakanglers.com/in ... ic=14090.0 .

The Complete Paddler, a guidebook for paddling the Missouri River from the Headwaters to St. Louis, Missouri, by David L. Miller, has some information about paddling up the river in Part 2, starting on Page 64. It's in Google, but when I tried to provide a link to this section of the book, it didn't work. A brief summary: paddling up the Missouri sounds like a really rotten idea.

Good stuff, pmmpete. Thank you.

Hobie hasn't done a very good job of selling me on their products. For example, they told me: "A Revo 16 would be the best choice, but I would warn against thinking that you’re going to be paddling this boat – it’s best while using the Mirage Drive...it’s hard to predict how well [the portage cart] would hold up"

I ordered the Complete Paddler a few days ago. I've read what he had to say about going upstream. I think you're both right, it will be very hard and much of the time it won't be fun.

That said, big adventures tend to be "not fun" quite a bit of the time. I'm going to stick with my plan to head upstream. Perhaps I'll fail miserably, but if I fail it will be because of injury or some emergency and not because I've given up.

I think I'll be getting some kind of touring/sea kayak instead.

Again, thanks for your help.

Extending pmmpete's commentary: Rivers also carry debris ... like trees. So while one may truly have enough draft clearance for Drive and rudder, a sunken, drifting tree can and will destroy your gear before you have a chance to react. I've seen many trees and worse well up from the depths and submerge again as quickly as they emerged.

As for your trip, part of the magic of Lewis & Clark's expedition was their ability to adapt to the conditions. Your trip may well force you to adapt, which could mean portage for miles and miles. Remember, L&C did their thing before anyone owned any of the land, which means there were no barbed wire fences demarcating private property, so they could portage for the shortest possible distance along the river's edge -- you probably won't enjoy that luxury. In many states, private land owners may own part of the river, and certainly own land down to its very edge, so you will be trespassing the moment you step off your boat. That could mean some really, really long portages around impassable sections.

The Revo 16 paddles pretty well, but a dedicated sea kayak paddles better. A boat w/ a deck and spray skirt is warmer and dryer than a SOT. If you learn to roll a traditional kayak, they're quicker and safer to right when you face the inevitable (all kayaks face this) capsize, and your gear doesn't get lost as will happen (even to a small degree) w/ an SOT. Yes that Mirage Drive sounds like the ticket for those lake miles. Buy yourself a quality paddle, as in more than $250; the paddle that came w/ my Revo 16 is too short and far too flexible -- it is identical to a very basic $100 REI paddle (plastic blades and a fiberglass shaft) with no carbon.

Hi,
I would recommend not using a Hobie if you're going up river. I do several races each year on the Missouri and in many places, you would not be able to pedal fast enough to counter the current. In slow areas, the current is 2-3 mph so you'd be averaging 2 mph going upstream since 5 mph is attainable by pedaling. In channeled areas from Sioux City all the way to where it meets up with the Mississippi, the current at times will be 5+ mph which would make it nearly impossible to pedal up river. One of the races I did had a 5 mile up river segment to stay the race. I paddled a 16.6" wide surf ski and there were areas that I had trouble sustaining 3-4 mph when encountering current. A touring kayak is going to be much better suited for such a journey since I would say foot pedal rudder control is a must for most of the river. As for the rudder....a rudder is not going to be an issue unless you start drifting backwards. The over the stern rudders on kayaks are designed to kick up if they hit something which protects the rudder and boat. I've hit submerged branches at 10+ mph going down river and all you hear is a couple thumps....one hitting the object and another when the rudder kicks back down. You won't have much to worry about for shallows except for wing dykes depending on water level past Sioux City. Once you get into South Dakota, that's when you will start running into sand bars that may be a few feet to 1/2 a mile wide to go across or find a way around. You'll encounter such areas from Sioux City all the way up to Gavins Point Dam in Yankton SD. Once you cross Lewis and Clark lake above the dam, you'll encounter such areas frequently until you reach the Fort Randall dam in Pickstown. I live in SD and paddle the river regularly. If you have any questions, feel free to reach out to me.
Another site worth checking out is www.rivermiles.com. It is a site built around the MR 340 race from Kansas City to St. Charles and the folks on there can provide a lot of insight as well and be resources along the way.

_________________
Braxton
-2013 Hobie PA12
-2010 Hobie Mirage Sport Hank Parker
-2012 Seabird Design Expedition LV
-1987 Hobie 16
-2010 Stellar SES
-Hobie Fleet 291 Yankton, SD
-South Dakota Canoe and Kayak Association

Thanks for all the good information everybody! There's nothing like hearing from people with experience. I've decided to use a touring kayak for this trip.

One thing I've decided is to hike the St. Louis to Yankton section to avoid all those wing dams. I'll kayak upstream from Yankton to at least Three Forks. I'll then hike the Lewis and Clark route to Orofino, Idaho before I get back on the water.

Based on your advice I've decided to use a touring kayak.

Here's some more information on my plans: http://bucktrack.com/Lewis_and_Clark_Trail.html

I plan to start walking from the Missouri/Mississippi confluence Friday morning.

Thanks again!

Buck3m:

I look forward to following your blog, particularly when you start paddling at Yankton. Post lots of pictures! While I don't know how many miles you are planning to cover a day on foot from St. Louis to Yankton, I suspect that you're going to hit the Missouri during high water, which will increase the difficulty of traveling upstream in the sections of river which aren't impounded behind dams. When you start paddling, post an update to this thread to remind members of this forum to check your blog. I will repeat my prediction: paddling upstream is not going to be any fun at all. Paddling downstream is way more fun. Send me a personal message as you approach Missoula, where I live.

A kayak cart would make it much easier to portage around dams and around the Great Falls area, if you have room for one in your kayak. Look for a cart which you can strap in the center of your kayak, so the cart supports the kayak's weight, and you just have to pull the kayak. With a good cart, you can easily portage your fully loaded kayak. Here are a couple pictures of my 13' Trident, loaded down with spearfishing gear.

Buck3m did you make the trip?

Just checking thinking it might be postponed. I would love to keep up with it if you do and if you do make the trip in 2017 and let me know, I would love to buy you a beer or dinner in Three Forks! I sell Montana Ranches and do a blog at http://www.venturewestranches.com and would love to chronicle your whole trip on our site or any site you want me to. Such an adventure.

I made the trip last year in just a little under 6 months and came through Three Forks of course. Too bad I didn't know about your offer in time!

I've posted a journal here: http://bucktrack.com/Lewis_and_Clark_Trail.html

I also put together a new video about my trip: