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PostPosted: Fri Sep 04, 2009 7:23 am 
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Joined: Wed Jul 08, 2009 10:31 pm
Posts: 17
Haha! Thanks for setting me straight Andrew! Now as to the 2 adjustments, I'm going to tell myself there are no stupid questions! I think I picture will help explain my confused state. Essentially, the traveler has 2 cleats, so you can control the sail. 1 obviously controls and moves the car allowing me to change the position of the sail. Thinking about it now, I guess the second cleat would allow me to control the mainsail twist. I think for embarrassment's sake, I won't comment on when to tighten or loosen. Can you confirm and explain? I'm talking about the cleat circled in blue.

Image

Ohh, as a bonus for answering my silly questions, here's a sweet looking wooden cat from the 09' Wave North Coast Championships. I found it's picture looking for the picture of a traveler setup. Looks like it's using alot of Hobie parts, besides the custom hull obviously.

Image
Image

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 04, 2009 7:31 am 
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Joined: Mon Oct 29, 2007 2:33 pm
Posts: 42
no worries at all... there are no stupid questions, only stupid people (who ALL drive in front of me on my way to work)... :)

the blue is your main blocks, used to sheet in or out the mainsail (and induce twist)
the red circle is the traveler, used to travel the entire block (and boom) assembly in our out

and the wooden boats are Sharks. hand made in a cold press with red cedar wood (it looks to me). they are very cool cats. unfortunatly a twister just killed a bunch of them up in NY.

guitara wrote:
Haha! Thanks for setting me straight Andrew! Now as to the 2 adjustments, I'm going to tell myself there are no stupid questions! I think I picture will help explain my confused state. Essentially, the traveler has 2 cleats, so you can control the sail. 1 obviously controls and moves the car allowing me to change the position of the sail. Thinking about it now, I guess the second cleat would allow me to control the mainsail twist. I think for embarrassment's sake, I won't comment on when to tighten or loosen. Can you confirm and explain? I'm talking about the cleat circled in blue.

Image

Ohh, as a bonus for answering my silly questions, here's a sweet looking wooden cat from the 09' Wave North Coast Championships. I found it's picture looking for the picture of a traveler setup. Looks like it's using alot of Hobie parts, besides the custom hull obviously.

Image
Image


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 04, 2009 7:44 am 
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Joined: Wed May 17, 2006 7:49 am
Posts: 1053
Location: North Carolina
And I stated rotation incorrectly. In heavy air you want to flatten the sail. By pullling the outhaul you flatten the foot of the sail, by pulling downhaul( stock 18 has very little downhaul ability, upgrade to 5:1 or better) you bend the mast on its major axis flattening the sail thru the center and heres my mistake, you over rotate the mast to flatten, limiting rotation makes the sail fuller.
I knew you had crew left and right at the front, it makes the bows dig and its very hard to tack. Had you backwinded the jib the tack could still be made that way but only with backwind. Also main comes in tight while tacking and then out as air comes across.
I tend to be a risk taker in all areas and I get angered by the cautious crowd telling me what I should or should not do. I like to sail in strong air, small craft advisories get me excited. Pushing my limits and the limits of my equipment is where the thrill is for me. I have been sailing cats for 30 years now and I hate sailing in light air, my lake racing shows that.
Sorry if I offend anyone but" if it ain't blowin' I ain't going".


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 04, 2009 7:56 am 
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Joined: Mon Oct 29, 2007 2:33 pm
Posts: 42
now i could be wrong but.....
h18 dont have the ability to increase force/rotation (without adding blocks and a lines to force it to over-rotate). And forcing rotation does flatten the sail BUT it causes more power by changing the angle of attack to the wind...

SO... you depower your sail by reducing rotation (hence mast limiter) and point the limiter to the rear beam (or close) and reduce the angle of attack

FROM the AHPC site : (yes this is for a different cat... but same princapals)
Light Winds: 1 -5 knots
Mast rotation - 45 deg (limiter bar pointing to the side stay)

Light / Medium Winds : 5 - 10 knots
Mast rotation - 40 to 30 deg

Medium Winds: 10 - 15 knots
Mast rotation - 30 to 20 deg

Strong Winds : 15- 20 knots
Mast rotation - 15 deg (limiter bar pointing to the rear beam)



ncmbm wrote:
And I stated rotation incorrectly. In heavy air you want to flatten the sail. By pullling the outhaul you flatten the foot of the sail, by pulling downhaul( stock 18 has very little downhaul ability, upgrade to 5:1 or better) you bend the mast on its major axis flattening the sail thru the center and heres my mistake, you over rotate the mast to flatten, limiting rotation makes the sail fuller.
I knew you had crew left and right at the front, it makes the bows dig and its very hard to tack. Had you backwinded the jib the tack could still be made that way but only with backwind. Also main comes in tight while tacking and then out as air comes across.
I tend to be a risk taker in all areas and I get angered by the cautious crowd telling me what I should or should not do. I like to sail in strong air, small craft advisories get me excited. Pushing my limits and the limits of my equipment is where the thrill is for me. I have been sailing cats for 30 years now and I hate sailing in light air, my lake racing shows that.
Sorry if I offend anyone but" if it ain't blowin' I ain't going".


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 04, 2009 9:06 am 
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Joined: Mon Feb 25, 2008 1:42 pm
Posts: 80
I do the following

Jib fairleads fully back - also depending on crew weight and experience. Moving back flattens jib.

Mast rotation towards side stays - will kill 1/3+ of your main's power. Helps to flatten sail.

Outhaul - just tight enough - in calm wind when you pull in outhaul until the boom begins to lift - that's it.

Downhaul - Crank her in - I normally just pull in until wrinkles are gone.

Batten tension - I have mine tight tight to induce curve and battens are already shaved.

Spreader rake - more back. To get more mast bend

Diamond wires - tight, tight.

Mast rake - back to depower - even to the last hole on adjusters (survival)


Check on land after doing this to make sure that your sail is not cupped - not what you want. Check also the length of your jib sheets - most 18's I have seen have a smaller rope going from jib then to halyard. Too long - not good.


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 04, 2009 9:31 am 
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Joined: Mon May 09, 2005 10:25 am
Posts: 4267
Location: Jersey Shore
Since we've moved on to the topic of how to depower the 18, I'll toss in my 2 cents...

Changing the mast rotation has very limited effects. I pretty much always have it pointed somewhere between the shroud and the rear X-bar for upwind sailing. The traditional guidelines for the 18 call for increasing mast rotation to depower.

Likewise with the diamond wires, I keep them snug in all conditions and haven't adjusted them in years. Traditional guideline is to loosen them to depower and allow the mast to bend. Although with the comptip, this isn't really required because the comptip can be bent through mainsheet and downhaul alone.

The main depowering tools on the 18 are mainsheet, traveler, and downhaul. Outhaul is almost always kept in the same position- about 2 to 3 inches off the boom to keep the power low in the sail.

As windspeed increases, the mainsheet should be brought in and the downhaul tension increased as well. Doing this bends the top of the mast making the top of the sail flat and twisted and helps keep the CE low. Once you've gotten to the point that the downhaul is completely bottomed out and you have to play the mainsheet excessively, then travel out a few inches. You can also ease the jib very slightly and this will help open the slot between the jib and main. Only ease the jib to the point that the luff has a slight pocket. Any more and you'll just be flogging the sail. Once you've gotten to the point that you're traveled out to around the hiking straps, it's probably time to consider rolling up the jib.

sm


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 04, 2009 1:56 pm 
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Joined: Wed May 17, 2006 7:49 am
Posts: 1053
Location: North Carolina
I always forget, my mast is pre-bent so rotating flattens the sail and keeps it out of the slot. My rig depowers more like an F18 than a H18. SRM gives the best description I could create of the stock H18 depower. I currently have 8:1 downhaul but am cascading it to 16:1 this weekend.


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 04, 2009 2:01 pm 
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Joined: Mon Sep 22, 2008 11:01 am
Posts: 86
Location: Southern VT/NH
I may have missed the time to be adding this note, but I recently have been working on understanding and using apparent wind direction. In his book, Catamaran Sailing from Start to Finish Phil Berman has this to say (in his intermediate sailing section)
Quote:
DOWNWIND SAIL TRIM
With an understanding of how tell-tales work, you can keep your sails working at their optimum, especially when you’re tacking downwind. The course that gives the most speed for the least extra distance is about 135 degrees from the wind, or about 90 degrees from the apparent wind (figure 6).
When your shroud yarns are streaming directly across your cat, you’ve got a 90-degree apparent wind. If you sail higher than 90 degrees (to 70 or 80 degrees) the shroud yarns will angle forward of the beam. And if you sail too low (100 to 110 degrees off the wind) the shroud yarns will angle behind the beam. So, to keep the wind at 90 degrees, watching the shroud yarns is critical. You want to sail as low on the wind as you can without cutting off the flow of air across the backside of your sail(s). A good way to get at this trim is to start the run with your sail(s), traveler(s) and/or barber hauler all the way out. From this point, slowly trim the sail(s) in and head up .until the leeward tell-tale begins to lift and flow aft. If the shroud yarns don’t indicate a 90-degree apparent wind, you have to either alter your course or sail trim until they do. Remember, you can’t get a 90-degree apparent wind if your sails are not receiving air flow across their Leeward sides.
Reaching downwind in a series of tacks is something most catamarans do with no problem. However, una-rigged cats with Less than 130 square feet of sail area cannot sail effectively by tacking downqwind with the wind at 90 degrees. Small unarigs just can’t generate enough speed with the wind at 90 degrees to justify the extra distance sailed.

I am interested in your take on this.

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'87 H16 Sail 89907
If you aren't sailing on the edge, you're taking up too much room.


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 06, 2009 8:59 am 
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Joined: Mon Oct 29, 2007 2:33 pm
Posts: 42
srm wrote:
Since we've moved on to the topic of how to depower the 18, I'll toss in my 2 cents...

Changing the mast rotation has very limited effects. I pretty much always have it pointed somewhere between the shroud and the rear X-bar for upwind sailing. The traditional guidelines for the 18 call for increasing mast rotation to depower.

Likewise with the diamond wires, I keep them snug in all conditions and haven't adjusted them in years. Traditional guideline is to loosen them to depower and allow the mast to bend. Although with the comptip, this isn't really required because the comptip can be bent through mainsheet and downhaul alone.

The main depowering tools on the 18 are mainsheet, traveler, and downhaul. Outhaul is almost always kept in the same position- about 2 to 3 inches off the boom to keep the power low in the sail.

As windspeed increases, the mainsheet should be brought in and the downhaul tension increased as well. Doing this bends the top of the mast making the top of the sail flat and twisted and helps keep the CE low. Once you've gotten to the point that the downhaul is completely bottomed out and you have to play the mainsheet excessively, then travel out a few inches. You can also ease the jib very slightly and this will help open the slot between the jib and main. Only ease the jib to the point that the luff has a slight pocket. Any more and you'll just be flogging the sail. Once you've gotten to the point that you're traveled out to around the hiking straps, it's probably time to consider rolling up the jib.

sm


amen, well said.


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 24, 2009 1:20 pm 
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Joined: Mon Oct 29, 2007 2:33 pm
Posts: 42
so i posed these questions on the beachcats site and had very different results...than on this site


1. Do you understand the principals of apparent wind?
13 yes 1 no


2. Do you feel you know how to utilize apparent wind in your sailing?
4 yes 6 no and 2 somewhats...

I stand by my point that the ability to understand and utilize (and or maxamize) apparent wind is an advanced theory or at least advanced practice


http://www.thebeachcats.com/module-foru ... l#pid16596


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 24, 2009 5:19 pm 
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Joined: Sun Jul 25, 2004 4:46 pm
Posts: 169
Location: Bakersfield, CA
Yep...I agree! It's what separates the big boys from the little boys :lol:


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 24, 2009 7:37 pm 
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Joined: Thu Oct 25, 2007 7:04 am
Posts: 818
Location: Clinton Lake Kansas
alfred_new wrote:
I may have missed the time to be adding this note, but I recently have been working on understanding and using apparent wind direction. In his book, Catamaran Sailing from Start to Finish Phil Berman has this to say (in his intermediate sailing section)
Quote:
DOWNWIND SAIL TRIM
With an understanding of how tell-tales work, you can keep your sails working at their optimum, especially when you’re tacking downwind. The course that gives the most speed for the least extra distance is about 135 degrees from the wind, or about 90 degrees from the apparent wind (figure 6).
When your shroud yarns are streaming directly across your cat, you’ve got a 90-degree apparent wind. If you sail higher than 90 degrees (to 70 or 80 degrees) the shroud yarns will angle forward of the beam. And if you sail too low (100 to 110 degrees off the wind) the shroud yarns will angle behind the beam. So, to keep the wind at 90 degrees, watching the shroud yarns is critical. You want to sail as low on the wind as you can without cutting off the flow of air across the backside of your sail(s). A good way to get at this trim is to start the run with your sail(s), traveler(s) and/or barber hauler all the way out. From this point, slowly trim the sail(s) in and head up .until the leeward tell-tale begins to lift and flow aft. If the shroud yarns don’t indicate a 90-degree apparent wind, you have to either alter your course or sail trim until they do. Remember, you can’t get a 90-degree apparent wind if your sails are not receiving air flow across their Leeward sides.
Reaching downwind in a series of tacks is something most catamarans do with no problem. However, una-rigged cats with Less than 130 square feet of sail area cannot sail effectively by tacking downqwind with the wind at 90 degrees. Small unarigs just can’t generate enough speed with the wind at 90 degrees to justify the extra distance sailed.

I am interested in your take on this.
That's it for going downwind fast, especially on a H18 (or Alfred's H16). DON'T LOSE FLOW ON THE LEE SIDE OF THE SAIL! You lose flow and Bob Curry says you lose five boat lengths getting flow re-established!

How do you see flow on the back side? Use the black beauty tell tales, and put one 4 to 6 inches above or below the opposite one, this will help you see the lee tale "through" a colored sail panel. Still can't see the lee tales? Have your crew call flow on the back side. Keeping the boat at 90 degrees (apparent wind) gets easier with practice. You'll develop a feel for it and will be able to feel the boat slow and head up to KEEP FLOW, and head down in the puffs, sailing an 'S' pattern. Time on tiller... Oh, and gybe back into those puffs.

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 25, 2009 6:05 am 
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Joined: Mon Sep 22, 2008 11:01 am
Posts: 86
Location: Southern VT/NH
In my last few sails, I have found I am much more able to maintain the flow on both sides and keep the apparent wind direction 90 degrees. Unfortunately, its more intuitive than something I can explain how to do. I just keep tinkering with course and sheeting in until things are optimal.
:) Thank you for continuing this discussion. To utilize a stop light, you don't need to understand electricity or light theory, you just have to know what to do based on the information you have (red or green). The same is true of apparent wind, except you have control over what you see. With experimentation, you will find the right combination so you "see green instead of red."

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'87 H16 Sail 89907
If you aren't sailing on the edge, you're taking up too much room.


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 25, 2009 6:10 am 
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Posts: 42
thanks guys, the last 2 responces were great!


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 25, 2009 10:07 am 
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Joined: Wed May 17, 2006 7:49 am
Posts: 1053
Location: North Carolina
The tell tale info is really good to share. I had always put the tell tales right on top of each other, I mean the stickers on each side. You can see the lee tell tale that way but not nearly as well as if they are offset. I also like leech tells, especially on the squaretop. They let you know how the air is flowing off the sail and give the first indication of a stall, way before a sail mounted tell. I currently run two sets of tells above the hounds and two midway below.

So, lets talk about apparent wind and a spin. I seem to constantly overrun my spin causing it to collapse, especially in light air. I get the boat heated up and running and then seem to trip over the spin. I think its a matter of luff tension but I'm not certain. Any of you guys got enough spin experience to help?


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