H18SX - New Main - Standard or Squaretop ? Help decide.

Hi,
Trying to decide between a squaretop or standard new pentex main. (either way, pentex from Chip)

I weigh about 155, my crew weights vary... the boat is an SX.

Right now I'm planning to just get the squaretop and learn to deal with it.
(I'll have to upgrade my downhaul system for sure....)

Can anyone comment on tradeoffs between the two sails?

Since you are sailing a SX, and there is no real SX Class racing to be had anywhere in the country, there is really no point being concerned with a "class legal" sail.
That having been said, if it were me, I'd go for the square top.
The squaretop gives you more power up top in light air, but I believe in heavy air the leech twists off and dumps the power.
I think, as long as you are spending the money for a new sail, why not go for the gold.

Anyone else ?

Stephen

_________________
If the grass is greener on the other side of the fence, maybe it is time to water your own lawn.

Yeah go for the square top, and save the old sail. You will have the best of both.

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ALLEY CAT 1984 RED LINE HOBIE 18 MAGNUM
Sail # 10505 or 277

You will get quite a bit of power dump as stephen said above.The squaretop seemed to twist a lot up top in 18 + wind,but your on an sx so with your weight that shouldnt be an issue at all.When ordering from chip I would specify more belly towards the mast vs a flat sail.Go with the square top and have him set you up with his nice battens with auto tensioners too.
shawn
82 H18 8211
Div 3

If it were me, I'd be careful ordering a sail with a lot of draft (power)

He's already got a taller mast & sail than a stock SE, coupled with the additional square footage provided by the square top vs the pinhead.
I'd guess he is going to get overpowered in a hurry when the wind starts to build.

Also, a really good downhaul (I'd go with the 8:1) will be an absolute necessity.

I'd run with loosened diamond wires so that you can use the downhaul to induce mast bend to flatten (depower) the sail.

But hey, thats just my opinion

_________________
If the grass is greener on the other side of the fence, maybe it is time to water your own lawn.

you might want to read the thread Props to Chip @ Whirlwind.
and ask ncmbm how he is liking his sail.
Also ask Damon Linkous, he is the moderator over at http://www.thebeachcats.com .
I know he has a set of whirlwind sails, and I believe the main is a squaretop.

_________________
If the grass is greener on the other side of the fence, maybe it is time to water your own lawn.

yea, you may be right.My experience is limited to going out on Wes's 18 with a new square top from Chip.You can ask him about it .You can find him on the 20 link now under 18sailaway ,he would be able to give more info.He does singlehand his 18 se that he had before he got his 20 and said he wanted more power in the sail than he got.
shawn

Everything in life is a compromise, you won't win road races in a pickup truck, but you can't haul a sheet of plywood with a Corvette.

The Hobie 20 powers up MUCH more quickly than a Hobie 18. As a matter of fact, one "performance oriented sailor" told me that HE thought the Hobie 18 was the most underpowered 18' cat ever built.
I don't know that I would agree with his comment, BUT compared to the Hobie 20 the Hobie 18 IS a bit .... "sedate".

That having been said, my reply to him was that I would be out tearing up the water hooting and hollering and having the time of my life in winds that would have his Hobie 20 on the beach in pieces.

Everyone has his/her own favorite boat for his/her own reasons. I prefer the Hobie 18 because of its sturdy construction, versatility, and ease of handling over a wide range of conditions.

It is a good family boat, and a good racing boat with relatively strong class representation, at least here in the US and Australia.

Ok, getting off of my "soapbox", I've often thought about trying to put together a SX rig for my boat just to go out and play on.
If I had the SX Mast and sails, I would essentially have a "convertible".
Anyway, Rob, good luck with whichever sail you eventually decide upon.

Stephen

_________________
If the grass is greener on the other side of the fence, maybe it is time to water your own lawn.

Stephen, that was my concern....

You said "He's already got a taller mast & sail than a stock SE, coupled with the additional square footage provided by the square top vs the pinhead. I'd guess he is going to get overpowered in a hurry when the wind starts to build. "

My crew weight will vary depending on who I can get.... and I'm a buck 55 ( 155 lbs )... so in a way I think the last thing I need is MORE sail area up high....

BUT, I've sailed against Damon and other H18s w/the squaretop... even a few weeks ago in Navarre, FL... Damon was single handing... and it was blowing like mad, gusts to 33mph...

So I'm a little apprehensive of more area up high... but then again, I'm thinking just deal with it and learn more about sail trip... my old mylar one is all delam'd... this is my quandary!

BUT either way I'll be moving up a few notches, pentex pinhead or pentex squaretop...

Everyone these days it seems has squaretops... so I just gotta get it and learn to sail it.

Will let you know!
-Rob

I like the square top. Haven't noticed any real speed difference between the new one Chip made and the Tiger ST sail I have been sailing. Each had different issues I was working on. The Tiger has a lot of luff curve and likes a pre-bent mast. The new sail seems to have less luff curve in the lower portion but more up top. It makes the sail kinda tricky and hard to raise. Chip is most eager to work with me on getting the proper shape out of the sail and I'm certain in time it will get worked out. Then I think the sail will really show its true speed.

It has been my experience that the square top is no faster overall than a pinhead but a properly shaped square top should have an advantage in light air(it does on the I-20s). The square top does make the boat look newer and high tech. Mine was made with Contender fabric which seems very strong and has a nice finish. You really feel the transfer of wind power in the sail. It is very responsive to puffs and gusts. Plus, Chip does a nice job with the sail layout and the seams and overall construction are top notch.

I to have a set of Chips sails which includes a squaretop pentex main. Where I mostly feel the difference between my newer sails and the old stock sails is in light air. As ncmbm stated, can't tell much difference in heavier air. I have no issues raising or lowering the sail as a matter of fact, it goes up quite a bit easier than the stock main did. I only have a 5:1 downhaul which I felt was sufficient because the pentex basically does not stretch at all but now I'm wondering if I need to upgrade to an 8:1. If the pentex does not stretch anyway, is there still an advantage to having more leverage on my downhaul?

Tom

in a word yes.

The object of the game when using the downhaul is not to stretch the sail. That would be a bad thing.
The real object is to load the luff rope in order to induce bend in the mast.

On the Hobie 18, when sailing at minimum weight, I loosen the diamond wires a bit and then, when the main is sheeted in tight, my crew can "play" the downhaul to bend the mast, thereby flattening the sail to depower it in the puffs when the hull lifts. the sail then has a less powerful, but faster shape.

Think of a car shifting from 1st gear to 3rd gear.
1st gear equals power and acceleration, Not much downhaul & draft in the sail
3rd gear equals less power/torque but higher speed. Downhaul tight & Flattened sail.

As the puff decreases, and the windward hull drops back to the water, the crew eases the downhaul, putting more draft back into the sail, powering it back up.

If you haven't loosened the diamond wires a bit, then all your are really doing is stretching the sail.

When sailing "heavy" and when I say heavy, I mean combined skipper and crew weight of 350# or more, I tighten the diamond wires so that when I sheet the main tight the mast doesn't bend, because with that much weight, I can use the power almost all the time, and if I am having trouble with the windward hull lifting, then I start letting the traveler out a little at a time until I can keep the hull from lifting too much.

I hope that all makes sense, I have a hard time sometimes with drawing "word pictures"

Stephen

_________________
If the grass is greener on the other side of the fence, maybe it is time to water your own lawn.

I have 8:1 downhaul and you can't imagine until you do it how much the mast bends. The comptip takes a lot of the bend and really makes me wish there was a solid SX mast option. I tend to sail heavy as I weigh 200 myself so my wires stay tight. The main sheet really bends her down as well, the pentex does not stretch at all.

My sail is going back to Chip in the off season for a reshape of the top, I think it should be fuller than it is. I really enjoy tinkering with the boat but cannot make myself learn to enjoy light air.

Competetive drifting 101.

Also known as "my boat floats faster than your boat floats" in generally just a pain in the arse.

Even worse when sailing portsmouth because there is no way to meet the numbers.

Light air sailing is sometimes more art than science.

Here in Colorado, we get a lot of it (light air) , and if its not light, it is often blowing the dogs off of the leashes.
I've gotten good @ sailing light air, I guess it's a necessary evil but I still don't "enjoy" it.
It does give you a lot of time to "tinker" with the adjustments, and think about ways to make the boat go faster.

My neighbor races a minature Miss Budweiser in a class that is limited to a 2.5 litre engine.
He travels a lot to lower altitudes and generally does very well. He explains it to me this way.
The air here (in Colorado) is so thin that he really has to tune and tweak for every erg of horsepower he can get. The guys that generally race at lower altitudes don't have to work as hard for the performance they get. When he gets to the lower altitude, his engine is so well tuned, because it HAS to be, he has a leg up on some of the others.

Just a thought to make those light air days a little more bearable, learning to sail the boat well in light air, even tho it is no fun, will pay dividends, even on the windier days.

Stephen

_________________
If the grass is greener on the other side of the fence, maybe it is time to water your own lawn.

Square Top upgrade the down haul and have fun. Skipshot just put a nice Whirlwind Square top on his 18-SX . Good boat speed and nice looking sail.

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Rich Vilvens
F-18 5150
[email protected]
http://www.sailblogs.com/member/f-185150sailing/