Return to Hobie.com
Hobie Forums
It is currently Thu Sep 11, 2025 10:39 am

All times are UTC - 8 hours [ DST ]




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 13 posts ] 
Author Message
 Post subject: H16 Rudder Trouble
PostPosted: Sun Aug 16, 2009 5:28 am 
Offline
Site Rank - Deck Hand

Joined: Thu Jul 30, 2009 3:29 pm
Posts: 21
I just bought a 1983 H16, and can't get the rudders to align. I completely removed the screw from the adjusters (on the ends of the bar that runs between the rudders) - just to make sure I had them all the way out. But all the way out doesn't give me enough length to get the rudders aligned.

It seems that I need a longer bar, longer adjusters, or maybe just drill new holes in the existing bar (closer to the ends).

Anybody heard of this problem before/know of a fix?

Thanks,
Robert


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: H16 Rudder Trouble
PostPosted: Sun Aug 16, 2009 7:34 am 
Offline
Site Rank - Old Salt

Joined: Mon Sep 19, 2005 10:18 am
Posts: 778
Location: Virginia Beach VA
Happened to a friend of mine too. Somewhere along the boat owners history the tiller crossbar was replaced by one from a Hobie 14. Tiller bars were made in several different lengths for the H16 too depending on whether your rudder arms are straight or bent or whether you have the older (double or single) or new style end adjusters.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: H16 Rudder Trouble
PostPosted: Sun Aug 16, 2009 7:41 am 
Offline
Site Rank - Old Salt

Joined: Wed Jul 21, 2004 7:46 pm
Posts: 1457
Location: Santa Cruz
Your rudders might be on backwards. The upper arms should bend towards the centerline of the boat.

_________________
Sail Revolution
Join us on our new FB Page!


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: H16 Rudder Trouble
PostPosted: Sun Aug 16, 2009 3:38 pm 
Offline
Site Rank - Deck Hand

Joined: Thu Jul 30, 2009 3:29 pm
Posts: 21
thanks for the tips guys. the rudders were in fact on backwards! wonder how long they've been that way...


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: H16 Rudder Trouble
PostPosted: Sun Aug 30, 2009 11:21 am 
Offline
Site Rank - Deck Hand

Joined: Thu Jul 30, 2009 3:29 pm
Posts: 21
So I got the rudders attached to the right hulls, and adjusted per hobie recommendation (1/4" toe in (although I can't see that it matters all that much with all the play in those rudders)), and took the boat out for a spin. It's fine in a light breeze, but up around 10 knots, it takes a steady pull on the tiller to keep the boat from rounding up into the wind. Is that normal?

Thanks,
Robert


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: H16 Rudder Trouble
PostPosted: Sun Aug 30, 2009 11:56 am 
Offline
Site Rank - Admiral

Joined: Thu Dec 20, 2007 1:33 pm
Posts: 226
Location: Southern California
Don't feel bad - Happend to me first time I went out with my 83 H16.
Drove me crazy that I could not get the rudders to align. I spent a couple of days trying to fix.

This forum saved me on this one.

_________________
1980 18 foot class A Unicorn catamaran
1977 Super Sunfish (sold)
1979 Hobie (sold)
1983 Hobie 16 Hawiian Sunset (sold)
1981 Hobie 16 Tequilla Sunrise (sold)
2008 Hobie 16 (sold)
2023 Hobie 16
Founding member of the "San Dimas Yacht Club"
John


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: H16 Rudder Trouble
PostPosted: Sun Aug 30, 2009 7:32 pm 
Offline
Site Rank - Old Salt

Joined: Sun Oct 03, 2004 8:45 pm
Posts: 648
Location: Saskatoon, Sk. Canada
To reduce your upwind helm you need to rake the bottom of the rudders farther under the boat. Depending what style of rudder you have will determine how you accomplish this. Do a search for the adjustment I know this has been covered several times in the past. Good luck .. :)

_________________
06 getaway -- always remember, man with both feet in mouth have no leg to stand on.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: H16 Rudder Trouble
PostPosted: Mon Aug 31, 2009 5:24 pm 
Offline
Site Rank - Deck Hand

Joined: Thu Jul 30, 2009 3:29 pm
Posts: 21
RUDDER RAKE -

Rudder rake (forward or aft in the lower casting) changes the helm feel. Weather helm (pull on the tiller) is caused by the rudder being aft of neutral. Lee helm is caused by the rudder rake being too far forward. Best adjustment is to have slight weather helm on all sailing angles. This allows you to hold the tiller against a slight pull for holding the boat on a stable course. The boat should round up slowly if you drop the tiller. Lee helm is dangerous and can cause you to loose control of the boat. Neutral helm can be difficult as the tiller is pulling and or pushing against you on different sailing angles and can cause you to have erratic steering.

On older boats, rudder rake is adjusted by re-drilling the rudder blade. Either the upper casting hole or possibly both. Newer boats use the upper casting plate (see adjustment under "CAMS" above) and set screw in the lower casting for rake adjustments. There is a basic rudder rake setting to compare to. You can also use a drilling template http://www.hobiecat.com/support/tech/rudder.html

For proper rake adjustment you may need to try several settings. Helm feel will change with different mast rake, sailing angles and sail settings...

Start off with the rudders in the locked down position. Measure down the blade 12” from the bottom of the lower casting. Mark the rudder with a line 2” long perpendicular to the 12” point. Using a very thin piece of line, starting at the top of the rudder pin, align the "line" with the rudder pin top to bottom (on the pins center line / axis) and check where the line intersects the mark on the rudder. Mark the point where your rudder pin axis crosses the mark you made 12" down the blade. Measure in from the front of the rudder. A larger measurement means that the rudder is raked forward more. More forward rake is less weather helm. Optimally, you should have 1 5/8” to 1 3/4” for a measurement. To achieve the 1 3/4” number, you might have to re-drill the front hole on the rudder or file away at the front of the rudder where it hits the casting. To much forward rake can cause lee helm and THAT is WORSE and even dangerous. The boats sail better and are safer if the boat rounds up slowly when the tiller is released.

You can use the above technique to measure and re-drill a blade. Mount the blade on the lower casting. Make all of the above measurements and set (and hold) the rudder in the desired rudder rake position. Lock the upper casting onto the rudder and lower casting. Push the upper assembly up into the cam to seat it tightly (that holds the rudder in the raked position once the rudder system is fully set up). Align the tiller arm angle (vertical position) with the rudder assembly on the opposite side of the boat. You can mark the bolt hole position or drill right through using the casting as a drill guide. You must hold the upper arm in position while drilling this way. I angle the drill slightly forward rather than straight through. This forces the upper casting forward more as the drill reaches the opposite side of the casting after going through the rudder blade. If the hole is too far aft, the rudder will slip aft a bit when under sailing loads.


Last edited by walthall on Mon Aug 31, 2009 8:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: H16 Rudder Trouble
PostPosted: Mon Aug 31, 2009 8:18 pm 
Offline
Site Rank - Deck Hand

Joined: Thu Jul 30, 2009 3:29 pm
Posts: 21
http://www.thebeachcats.com/OnTheWire/h ... ature2.htm

Rebuilding the Hobie Rudder Cam Assembly
Controlling When and Where Your Rudders Kick Up
by Gary Willcox

Last month's On The Wire discussed rudder slop and how to eliminate it. Let's discuss another important rudder topic - the Hobie rudder cam assembly. The goals are to adjust cam tension easily and have a positive locking rudder cam. This article will deal specifically with the Hobie 16 rudder system, but the techniques and methods can apply to other boats as well.


Symptoms of improper cam tension cause the rudders to kick up in heavy weather sailing, or not kick up when the rudders strike the beach. Few things are as aggravating as having the rudders pop up unexpectedly when sailing in heavy weather or when you accidentally "Few things are as aggravating as having the rudders pop up unexpectedly..."
strike a stick or object in the water. You also don't want to have the cam so tight as to rip out a gudgeon when forgetting to raise rudders when beaching your cat.

We want to be able to control when and where our rudders kick up. One successful Hobie 16 racer I know uses the "troll and release" method when racing (weekly, local, casual races). The lake they sail on has a lot of plant growth. If he sees a buildup of plants on his rudders, he waits until just before the next mark when the competition is right behind him. He then reaches back and pops a rudder or two and gives his friend a "present." Now that is what I call rudder control.

One of the biggest obstacles to getting proper cam tension is the 3/4" delrin adjusting screw. This screw will "freeze up" in the rudder casting threads. It is also very easy to strip out the V slot in the screw with your screw driver when trying to adjust or remove it. You then have a delrin screw trapped in your rudder casting that can't be adjusted or removed.

Our goal is to remove this delrin screw, freshen the threads for the delrin screw, replace the four Hobie rudder cam mechanism parts, and properly adjust the rudder cam tension.
The tools needed to rebuild this system are: a large screwdriver about 8" long with a 3/8" slotted head; a small screwdriver about 6" long with a 1/4" slotted head; a drill; standard drill bits; a 3/8" x 6" wood boring drill bit; a large bolt (3/4" x 6 1/2" - #10 threads); a large wrench or socket to drive the
large bolt; WD40 lubricant; a flashlight; and perhaps a coping saw.

The large bolt should be double checked for thread size by holding it up next to the delrin screw. You will want to purchase the hardened automotive variety bolt so that the threads will hold up better than the cheaper versions. I paid about $4 for mine.



The Hobie parts needed for this rebuild are: delrin screw, spring, and plunger kit (you will need two kits for about $12 each). While you are at it, you should probably install new rudder cams. You can tell if you need new ones if the top lip is bent or soft. If you have a Hobie dealer nearby, just compare your old one to a new one side by side. If you have cams held in place with rivets, you will also need the sleeve that screws into place since you will be drilling out your old rivet sleeves. I believe the kit with two cams and two screw style sleeves are about $12.

Hobie cam rebuild steps:


1. Remove the rudder assembly from the boat and remove the rudder and rudder arm.
2. Remove the rudder cam by unscrewing or drilling out the sleeve (depending on which style you have). ..
3. Drill out the delrin screw with the 3/8" wood boring bit.
4. Chip out the excess delrin remains with the small blade screwdriver.
5. Remove the spring and plunger from the casting.
6. Spray the 3/4 bolt with WD40 and insert into lower end of casting. Spray additional WD40 into top of casting hole.
7. Work bolt in and out until the bolt can be rotated easily. Look down the top of the casting hole with a flashlight to make sure that the bolt is passing through all of the threads, but no further. On my Hobie 16 casting, the bolt was inserted completely when I had about 1/2 inch of bolt left on the bottom of the casting.

8. Flush out casting hole with water. Air or force dry.


9. Insert new plunger, spring, and delrin screw from the bottom of the casting. Lubricate top of the plunger with a non-staining water resistant grease.



11. Attach rudder and rudder arm using David Halls "rudder slop" reduction techniques described last month.
10. Attach cam and cam screw sleeve.


If the delrin screw needs additional work to remove, insert a coping saw through the hole in the casting. Make about 4 small 90 degree grooves to weaken the wall of the delrin screw. Just be careful that you do not damage the threads.

With the rudder in the down position and the cam locked down, adjust the rudder locking plate
on the rudder arm so that it is snug against the rudder cam lip. This will ensure that the plate will catch the cam and flip it up not leaving the cam in the locked position with the rudder arm up.

Next, attach the rudder assembly to the boat using the rudder pins. Adjust the delrin screw so that the rudder kicks up with a swift blow with your foot. If you wish to be more exact, a fish scale can be used to get both rudders adjusted the same. Just tie a loop of line around the rudder about 7" from the bottom and pull with a fish scale. Adjust both rudders by adjusting the delrin screw (now an easy task) to about 17-26 pounds of force before they pop up.

You will also want to make sure that you adjust the rudders using the adjusters on the rudder cross bar so that they are parallel (or for a Hobie 14 or 16, they are toed in about 1/8"). This can be measured with the rudders in the locked down position measuring leading edge to leading edge and trailing edge to trailing edge.

That's it. Take the finished rudders out for a spin. Bring along your mammoth screw driver, and sockets so you can adjust the delrin screw and the rudder locking plate. Your rudders should lock and unlock flawlessly, never leave the cam locked with the rudder arm up, and should kick up when you want them.

Gary Willcox
[email protected]
Hobie 16 #911 [email protected]

Acknowledgments are due to Matt Miller of Hobie Cat for the specs in this article; David Hall for suggesting a bolt instead of a tap for the thread freshening; my local Hobie Cat dealer Strictly Sail in Cincinnati, OH for always having Hobie parts on hand; various Hobie mail list subscribers for giving insights and tips; and my wife, Mary, for her text proofing and hand modeling.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: H16 Rudder Trouble
PostPosted: Mon Aug 31, 2009 8:20 pm 
Offline
Site Rank - Deck Hand

Joined: Thu Jul 30, 2009 3:29 pm
Posts: 21
http://www.thebeachcats.com/OnTheWire/h ... ature1.htm

Towards the "No Slop" Rudder
Rudder tuning tips
by David Hall

It's sad but there are many Hobie sailors who don't even know they're having problems with their rudder and tillers. They think the way their boat came from the factory must be optimum. Picture a situation where you're leaving the beach. Your rudders are, of course, up. As the wind pulls you away from the shore, you can see the water deepening. With the rudders up you have to steer as best you can with the sails. Looking ahead, you lift your tiller arms one at a time knowing that they will drop to the 45 degrees down position and not fall down to dig into the shallow bottom. Now you have more ability to steer, although still not very well, but you know you can get out into the deeper water with no trouble. Once there, and still looking forward, you lift your leeward tiller and push it back to push the rudder down. When you feel it plant itself into its home in the rudder casting, you drop the tiller arm and listen to the rudder cam "click" into the locked down position. Then you do the same to the windward tiller arm listening for the click. You are now sailing!

What? That's not the way you do it? You mean once you release your rudders they fall all the way down with a hard "clunk" and drag your rudder tips through the rocks and sand. And you have to turn around and fiddle with both tiller arms, because they want to flop around and not seat themselves into position. And after pounding on your tiller arms, you're lucky to get your rudder cams to lock into place? Well, how much fun is that?


Properly set up, there should not be any slop in your tiller or rudder system. If you set up your steering system correctly, your rudders cams will work perfectly every time and not break once or twice a season. You boat will go where you think it's going. You won't have to wiggle your tiller to steer. And you'll eliminate the chore of replacing broken rudder cams. In fact the only maintenance you'll need to do to your steering system is periodically renewing the lubricant on your rudder cam locks.
"...Good reliable steering was the magic formula that finally made sailing fun for me..."

Good reliable steering was the magic formula that finally made sailing fun for me. Before I set up my rudders and tillers I would carry special tools and ropes so I could flip my rudder cams when I raised my rudders. (The tool I liked best was large channel locks, but they chewed up the rudder cam.) And what a pain to stop sailing to go into irons and hope I didn't flip the boat backwards while I was working back there. If you're in this category, you need to read this article.

The purpose of this article is to show you how to take the slop out of your tiller and rudder system very inexpensively. When I say no slop, I mean you should not be able to grab any part of your steering system and feel any wiggle. This includes holding a single rudder, both rudders, or the tiller extension. Everything should be tight. Furthermore, once you've finished this, there should be no possibility of rudder damage by rudder-to-casting contact.

First you need to understand what's wrong with the stock setup. The stock Hobie rudder system is made to accommodate a variety of ills: Rudders might not always be the same thickness, aluminum castings might not always be the same size, and the skill of the assembler (your local boat shop), might not always come up to Hobie standards. This means that if the manufacturing tolerances are too close, they might have to throw away some castings or rudders. And if the assembler has not learned under the master assembler, he might damage the parts going together. Hobie seems to have elected to err on the side of sloppy steering systems.


Look at your rudder castings. Look in the dark recesses where the plastic rudder sits inside the aluminum castings. Can you look inside and see either of the two bolts between the rudder and the aluminum? If so you have slop. Your rudders can slide back and forth on the bolts. Now look at your rudders. Do you have circular scratch marks where the aluminum castings have been rubbing against the plastic rudder? Of course you do. Everyone does, unless you were the first person to assemble your rudders, and you did it right. That weakens your rudders and could puncture through and allow water to fill inside your rudders. Bad news. Once we take the slop out of your rudders that rubbing will stop.

Room for "slop"

Now lift a tiller arm and try to wiggle it. Of course it wiggles! In fact it wiggles so much that it's not at all unusual to find a tiller that will overlap the cam. You can actually have the tiller arm come down and hit the cam with a very strong force - remember pounding your tiller arm to get it to lock down? Now that's slop. We can take care of that. When you lifted the tiller arm, did the blade fall into the vertical position with a hard "thunk?" Of course it did! It whacked against the bottom casting. Look at the front of the rudder where it whacked into the casting. See any damage? Of course you do. Now how can you control your steering system when it's that loose? Well, I think I've made my point. All new boats come this way. Hobie has left it up to you to fix this. Fortunately it's not hard or expensive. Why don't they do it? It takes time. Let's get on with this. First you need a little time. Then you need to eat a lot of butter or cool whip. I'd start with eating about 16 tubs of whipped dairy products. Why? Cause you need the tub lids to make plastic shims for your rudders. Remember looking at the bolts running through the castings and through the rudders. You need to fill those gaps completely with butter lid shims.


Here's the exact dimensions of the kit you can buy. The plastic shims are 3 inches in diameter with a 5/8 inch hole in the center. You can make your own by cutting a three inch circle out of a butter lid into and punching a 5/8 inch hole in the center. The kit costs about $8 last I checked (1989) and comes with 8 shims. KISME used to sell a kit for $8 with 16 shims. It's up to you what you use.

The homemade shim.
Before you take either of the two bolts out of your rudders, lock the rudders down and look at the gaps you have to fill. Note the wide gaps and the narrow gaps in both the rudder casting and the tiller connector casting. You'll need enough lids to fill all those gaps - more lids for the wide gaps and less for the narrow. But remember you need at least one shim on each side of the plastic rudder, in both castings, to protect it from grinding against the aluminum castings.

Once you've figured out about how many shims will fit between the gaps, you're ready to disassemble the rudder - there's only two bolts. Pull the bolts out one at at time, stuff the shims in, and put the bolts back in. You may need to tap the bolts with a hammer to push them through the shims. Be very careful not to tap the bolts through the rudder itself or crack the casting.



Shims installed
This time when you tighten the nuts onto the bolts, be careful. When you get to the point of deforming the aluminum casting, you'll be pushing the entire assembly together and putting a squeezing force on the rudder. Here's how tight to tighten the nuts. Put the rudder in the up position. Lift the tiller arm. If the rudder fell past the 45 degree point, the nut is too loose. If it did not fall that far, it is too tight. Adjust the nuts until the rudder does not fall past 45

Shims installed (side view)
degrees down. Now check to see whether you can push the rudder down by pushing on the tiller connector from on the boat. You should be able to. If you can't, loosen it a little more. You should have to push a little to get the rudder down. Once the rudder is down, lock it in place with a click of the cam.

Do this to the second rudder and you're ready to adjust toe in. The standard recommendation is to make sure the front and back of the rudders are pointed the same direction. I've always done this with the rudders up, but I'm the only one I know who does that. Everyone else does this with the rudders down. Whatever your preference, set it now. The adjustment is on the tiller crossbar at the tiller connector. I set mine with zero toe in.

With that set you're ready to test on the water. What you're testing for is helm - the tiller should pull slightly when you're sailing upwind. The helm adjustment is the subject of another article. Chances are if you were happy with your helm before you started this, you'll be happy with it now. The reason your helm needs to be right is the next step in eliminating your slop will literally cast your helm adjustment in rubber.


Lower your rudders and look at where they fit into the lower rudder casting. Mark the castings on the rudders so you can tape some plastic wrap on them. You'll need some black RTV, also known as silicone rubber, plastic wrap, and any kind of tape. Use black RTV because it is not affected by sun light. Tape the plastic wrap onto the rudders to cover the area where the rudder fits into the lower casting. Double check that the rudder is completely covered in the lower casting. Now raise the rudder and glop some RTV into the lower casting

Installing the RTV Molding
where the rudder will fit and lower the rudder immediately into the casting. Don't forget to lock it down. Leave it at least overnight to set the rubber, and don't sail for a week. After the mold is set you can remove the plastic wrap from the rudder. With this done, your rudders will always lock into the same place on the casting, every time. With the shims and the molding, your rudders cannot move.

That covers everything you need to stiffen your rudders, but, since I'm talking about the entire steering system, there are two more tips to help eliminate slop. The boat comes with a bolt through the round tiller cross bar where your tiller extension connects. That fitting is sloppy from the first day because you can't tighten the stainless bolt on the aluminum tube. What you need is to stiffen that fitting. An easy way to do this is with two molded plastic spacers. They're quarter round with holes and fit on each side of the cross bar where the bolt goes through. With these parts you have a firm grip on the round bar and a flat surface upon which you can tighten the nut to the through-bolt.

The last tip is to tighten your tiller connectors where the tiller connects to the cross bar on each side. The old stock Hobie parts were a sloppy solution to a problem with their design. KISME solved the problem with their TLCs back in the 80's, and Hobie came up with something a few years ago. Either of these new systems is preferable to the original sloppy connector.

If you've followed all these directions, you now have the stiffest steering system you can have. Your rudders will lock down with a click and stay down, and since you will always be locking and unlocking your rudders in exactly the same way, your cams will never break (just keep the cam plunger lubricated with something oily, NOT WD-40 because it washes out in the turbulence).

As I said above, having a stiff rudder system makes all the difference in the world as far as enjoying your Hobie. It took me about 2 seasons of sailing, after I eliminated all the slop, to really believe that my rudders always worked perfectly. No more cussing and swearing, no more banging my tiller arms to lock them down, no more rudder tips worn off against the rocks, and no more broken cams. This is a fun little project (eating the Cool Whip, I mean) and you won't believe the results are as good as I say, but give it a try. Sailing a Hobie is fun, but sailing a fun Hobie is a LOT more fun.

David Hall
Hobie 16, "Quick"
San Antonio, TX
dchall8(at-sign)texas(dot)net


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: H16 Rudder Trouble
PostPosted: Mon Aug 31, 2009 8:36 pm 
Offline
Site Rank - Deck Hand

Joined: Thu Jul 30, 2009 3:29 pm
Posts: 21
Learning about stuck cams and locking the rudders in place

viewtopic.php?t=4009&view=next


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: H16 Rudder Trouble
PostPosted: Wed Sep 02, 2009 12:21 pm 
Offline
Site Rank - Captain

Joined: Wed Aug 26, 2009 4:24 pm
Posts: 73
if you take the tiller crossbar off the rudders and flip them around they'll line up perfect. Just happened to me.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: H16 Rudder Trouble
PostPosted: Sun Sep 06, 2009 9:20 am 
Offline
Site Rank - Captain

Joined: Sun Aug 09, 2009 6:59 pm
Posts: 40
same thing happened to me. usually take the rudders off every time i am finished sailing. what u guys do. this last time kept rudders on and tied off both sides- trailered fine. taking those things on and off every time a real pain


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 13 posts ] 

All times are UTC - 8 hours [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum

Jump to:  
© Hobie Cat Company. All rights reserved.
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group