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PostPosted: Wed Aug 12, 2009 7:41 pm 
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I'll say pre-'84 because as far as I can tell, the adjustable upper casting was introduced in '84.

from FAQ's

Quote:
RUDDER RAKE -

Rudder rake (forward or aft in the lower casting) changes the helm feel. Weather helm (pull on the tiller) is caused by the rudder being aft of neutral. Lee helm is caused by the rudder rake being too far forward. Best adjustment is to have slight weather helm on all sailing angles. This allows you to hold the till agains a slight pull for stable sailing angles. The boat should round up slowly if you drop the tiller. Lee helm is dangerous and can cause you to loose control of the boat. Neutral helm can be difficult as the tiller is pulling and or pushing against you on different sailing angles and can cause you to have erratic steering.

On older boats, rudder rake is adjusted by re-drilling the rudder blade. Either the upper casting hole or possibly both. Newer boats use the upper casting plate (see adjustment under "CAMS" above) and set screw in the lower casting for rake adjustments. There is a basic rudder rake setting to compare to. You can also use a drilling template http://www.hobiecat.com/support/tech/rudder.html

For proper rake adjustment you may need to try several settings. Helm feel will change with different mast rake, sailing angles and sail settings...

Start off with the rudders in the locked down position. Measure down the blade 12" from the bottom of the lower casting. Mark the rudder with a line 2" long perpendicular to the 12" point (fore and aft on the blade). Using a very thin piece of line, starting at the top of the rudder pin, align the "line" with the rudder pin top to bottom (on the pins center line / axis) and check where the line intersects the mark on the rudder. Mark the point where your rudder pin axis crosses the mark you made 12" down the blade. Measure in from the front of the rudder. A larger measurement means that the rudder is raked forward more. More forward rake is less weather helm. Optimally, you should have 1 5/8" to 1 3/4" for a measurement. To achieve the 1 3/4" number, you might have to re-drill the front hole on the rudder or file away at the front of the rudder where it hits the casting. To much forward rake can cause lee helm and THAT is WORSE and even dangerous. The boats sail better and are safer if the boat rounds up slowly when the tiller is released.

You can use the above technique to measure and re-drill a blade. Mount the blade on the lower casting. Make all of the above measurements and set (and hold) the rudder in the desired rudder rake position. Lock the upper casting onto the rudder and lower casting. Push the upper assembly up into the cam to seat it tightly (that holds the rudder in the raked position once the rudder system is fully set up). Align the tiller arm angle (vertical position) with the rudder assembly on the opposite side of the boat. You can mark the bolt hole position or drill right through using the casting as a drill guide. You must hold the upper arm in position while drilling this way. I angle the drill slightly forward rather than straight through. This forces the upper casting forward more as the drill reaches the opposite side of the casting after going through the rudder blade. If the hole is too far aft, the rudder will slip aft a bit when under sailing loads.


So let's (Matt?) break these pieces down
Quote:
On older boats, rudder rake is adjusted by re-drilling the rudder blade. Either the upper casting hole or possibly both. Newer boats use the upper casting plate (see adjustment under "CAMS" above) and set screw in the lower casting for rake adjustments. There is a basic rudder rake setting to compare to.
So you're saying compare your rudder rake with a newer boat with adj. uppers?

Quote:
You can also use a drilling template http://www.hobiecat.com/support/tech/rudder.html
Has the "drilling template" gone through iterations over the years? (like the standing rigging dimensions) In other words, you'll be "close" by simply re-drilling using the template?

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 13, 2009 5:34 am 
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I have an older boat with the newer adjustable castings and still have a lot of weather helm. The set screws in the adjustable castings push the rudders only further aft giving one less rake and may only be appropriate for correcting lee helm. Filling and drilling the rudders is the only way to resolve weather helm regardless of which casting you have. You need to be pretty conservative with any re-drilling. You are changing the rudder geometry which could affect the cam locking mechanism (particularly with the older style upper casting that does not have the slide plate cam lock adjuster).


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 13, 2009 6:21 am 
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Quote:
The set screws in the adjustable castings push the rudders only further aft giving one less rake and may only be appropriate for correcting lee helm. Filling and drilling the rudders is the only way to resolve weather helm regardless of which casting you have.


Not necessarily. You have to make adjustments to the set screw in the lower casting in conjunction with the "slider plate" in the upper casting. This allows you to move the rudder forward or aft in the casting. The set screw in the lower casting is a secondary adjustment. The slider plate is the primary means of adjusting rudder rake. If you adjust the set screw only, your rudders will either be sloppy or will not fully lock down.

If you have adjustable castings, the only reason you would need to re-drill your rudders is if the slider plate in the top casting has reached the end of it's travel or if the set screw is fully backed out of the lower casting but you still want to go farther forward.

sm


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 13, 2009 9:02 am 
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No need to "compare" to a newer boat. Use the drilling dimension listed in the FAQ for the "current" rake. The current rake is the "old" rake shown in the FAQ. We just went through this in detail to get production drilling as consistent as possible... and it matches the spec we have shown all along in the FAQ.

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 18, 2009 7:40 am 
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SRM - what is the "slider plate" you refer too.. ?

Can anyone post a picture of this?

My castings have the lower adjustable plastic screw for adjusting rake... and I am unaware of another "adjustment".


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 18, 2009 8:17 am 
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Its in the upper casting. Should be a visible bolt head on top and a flat plate on the underside. Older castings had a pressed in pin that locked under the cam.

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 18, 2009 10:03 am 
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is this a screw that taps into a rectangle plate?
I thought this was just the cam lock adjustment, and had nothing to do with rudder rake?
But it does? How so?


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 18, 2009 10:10 am 
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Yes. The plate is positioned forward into the locked cam to hold the rudder forward against the lower casting / set screw. You have to move the plate forward otherwise the rudder will swing back until the plate / upper casting moves forward to contact the cam.

Quote:
A cam plate too far forward can keep the cam from fully locking. A cam plate too far aft will allow the rudder to slip aft in the lower casting or allow the upper casting to be raised without pulling the cam open. To adjust the upper plate, lock the rudder down and hold the rudder firmly against the lower casting (forward most position). Loosen the upper plate then back it away from the cam a little. You want to seat the plate tight against the cam (in the fully locked position) while holding the rudder forward in the lower casting. Ease the plate forward while wiggling the upper arm up and down just a bit. The idea is to find the point of deepest insert that the upper plate can get into the cam. That may mean that the upper casting is not touching the lower casting. Don't force the plate too far forward as this will begin to force the cam open. When tightening the plate, be sure the plate doesn't move. I usually tighten with the wrench handle rotating forward towards the cam to move the plate forward if anything.

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 18, 2009 10:13 am 
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excellent!

Hey Matt.. any ideas how to get the delrin screw in the lower cam to come unstuck?
Mine are jammed in there and the alan key jsut spins....
IM about to use a blowtorch to melt them out as they are plastic.. any ideas?

Next im gonna try getting a screw to match the threads and hopefully push them out so i can replace with new ones.


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 18, 2009 10:17 am 
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I drill them out (the big one) with a flat wood bit... just smaller than the threads. Then pick the threads out of the casting.

You can heat a large blade screw driver and melt into the screw, but this creates a poisonous gas, so do it in a ventilated area. Then use a vise grip on the driver shaft for leverage.

The drill idea seemed to be quicker and clean.

I don't usually mess with the rake adjuster screw. Just file it off.

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 18, 2009 10:19 am 
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Get a big flat head screwdriver and heat up the end. Push it into the plastic screw. Wait till the screwdriver cools off and us it in the slot that you melted to remove the plastic screw. Works almost every time.


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 18, 2009 10:20 am 
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Sorry Matt. You posted while I was out giving the same answer. I like the heated screwdriver method as I screwed up a casting once drilling it out. No pun intended.


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 18, 2009 10:25 am 
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great stuff!!! ill try the hot screwdriver idea tonight! The seems safer then risking heating the casting.


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 18, 2009 2:51 pm 
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Bareeves wrote:
great stuff!!! ill try the hot screwdriver idea tonight! The seems safer then risking heating the casting.


Just be careful of the gas that comes off the Delrin screw when you plunge the hot screwdriver into it. Matt's not kidding - that stuff is nasty. Worse than tear gas.

Don't ask me how I know.


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 21, 2009 9:06 pm 
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it worked perfectly! - the screws are out and replaced!
thanks!


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