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PostPosted: Tue Jul 07, 2015 12:19 pm 
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Has anyone put new, or very lightly used sails on an older (70-80s) H16? If so, was it a night and day difference?

I sailed a Getaway at the yacht club the other day to take out a bigger group and noticed how much "starchier" the sails were compared to my tequila sunrise sails which are basically "soft"... I'm also wondering if this is why I can fly a hull with 360lbs of crew on a 10kt day instead of accelerating more?

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2004 Hobie Bravo - "Cheap Thrills" [Sold]


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 07, 2015 1:52 pm 
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Location: Nepean S.C. Ottawa, Canada
Night and day is a good phrase....
I replaced my original 1989 sails with pentex about 4 years ago.
In your case, go Dacron or the European sails, and you'll smile all day.

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2015 H16, with spin,
SOLD 1989 Hobie SX18 Sail # 1947 "In Theory..."
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 08, 2015 8:57 am 
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Location: Chicago
I bought a new square top main and jib a couple years ago for my 1989 H16. I didn't clock speeds before and after, but I can tell you my sailing satisfaction is much higher. Plus I can actually see through the windows, which makes life much easier. I do think they make a big difference in performance at both slow and fast speeds, but I couldn't differentiate for you how much from the square top vs just newer dacron. Plus the new colors are faster.

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 08, 2015 11:27 am 
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Location: Huntsville, AL
FWIW, my 76 sails are super soft and I always wondered if this was hurting performance. Make no mistake, the boat is fast, reached 18-20 on garmin GPS and flys a hull like a champ. When I bought my 84, the first thing I noticed was how crisp the sails felt and I thought for sure that boat would be a real rocket ship. It's not all that different though. Having a window on the jib is a big plus. They feel better and look better, but the real objective performance difference is minimal. I've had both boats on the water and it's more about skill and technique as I was able to outpace the crew on either boat. I'd say no more than 5-10% difference tops, which realistically translates to 1-2 MPH tops. I'll take that 1-2 MPH any day, but I'm still not sure it's "night and day" unless there's a serious defect in the old sails besides not being "crisp".

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Former Boats: '76 H16 Flamer #20060 / '87 H16 Blue Prism #90350
Current Boats: '01 H16 (Cayman) #115139 / '84 H16 Blue Hawaii #79922 / '85 H16 (81 Nat'l Boomer) #67318
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 08, 2015 11:44 am 
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Location: Nepean S.C. Ottawa, Canada
Agreed - crisp or soft is not the issue.
The point is that if the sails are older, can you still 'shape' the sail, and as required, create a 'stiff' sail profile?
OR
are the sails 'blown'?

The 'chord' of the sail shape is critical to good performance, and this can be achieved with new or old sails.
However, once the sails are so old that no matter how hard you sheet in, you cannot get the 'flatness' you want, then it may be time for new sails.

In lighter winds, I sometimes use my old (blown) sails, as there is more 'lift' than my newer Pentex sails.

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2015 H16, with spin,
SOLD 1989 Hobie SX18 Sail # 1947 "In Theory..."
'Only two things are infinite, the universe, and human stupidity. But I'm not sure about the former.'


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 08, 2015 12:30 pm 
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Great posts - really appreciate all the insights!

Not really sure what the plan is as yet, will have a much closer look the next time I'm out - I feel like there is more of a cup shape between battens when sheeted in but that's just supposition at this point...

There's actually a bit more to my particular story - the boat has two sets of sails. One is a Keoke (#3xxx) in pretty rough shape, luff torn up, battens were never detensioned, etc. The other is a Tequila Sunrise sail (don't recall number) that is supposedly a "cut down" sail from a H17 or H18, so the width of the main in the boom is a few inches shorter than the Keoke H16 sail.

I know it's discouraged, but I'm tempted to either get a good set of used H16 sails ($$$) or try something like the Intensity Sails ($$). I'm not going to be racing for a good while, but I'd like to see how it feels with fresher / correct sails... At the same time I'm replacing the standing rigging with the newer setup to get more mast rake (and safety), and understand the jib is cut differently to also help with this, so seems like a good time to do it.

Just another sucker - but I'm kind've addicted.

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2004 Hobie Bravo - "Cheap Thrills" [Sold]


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 08, 2015 12:39 pm 
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Joined: Tue Oct 08, 2013 6:55 am
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Location: St Cloud, MN
bmdumr - when you measure 18-20 MPH is that the top speed recorded by the end of the day, or is this some type of "average speed over the fastest mile" or something like that. (I assume it would have to be top speed...)

Either way 18-20 MPH is very fast IMHO.

I use the "Runkeeper" app, and I am struggling to reach 25 km/hr over a 1 km distance sailing at about 270 lbs crew weight on the Hobie 16. (not quite 16MPH). My jib is pretty decent, but my main is pretty much shot....FWIW


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 08, 2015 12:46 pm 
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Location: Huntsville, AL
Definitely the peak. And I may be cherry picking. This would be on a day with 14-16 steady winds and gusts up to 20.


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 12, 2015 2:35 pm 
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Location: Oakland, CA
jdzl, there is more we need to know about your rig and sails to give a good answer for your case.

1. When was the last time the sails were replaced? Main and jib.
2. When was the last time the standing rigging was replaced? Shrouds and forestay.

The reason is that Hobie changed the rake of the mast in the early 80's so that it leans toward the stern more and made adjustments to the length of the standing rigging and sails to accommodate the change. So if your rigging hasn't been changed in a while then getting new sails will force you to do so.


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 12, 2015 4:27 pm 
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Skipshot wrote:
jdzl, there is more we need to know about your rig and sails to give a good answer for your case.

1. When was the last time the sails were replaced? Main and jib.
2. When was the last time the standing rigging was replaced? Shrouds and forestay.
</snipped>


1. Unsure, the boat is a '78. The Keoke sails could be original or very close? The Tequila Sunrise set (cut down from another boat) looks to be newer, but still well used / worn. Safe to say they're at least 20+ years old, if not more - and have seen a lot of use.

2. I'm replacing the standing rigging (bridles, forestay, shrouds) now anyway - piece of mind and to get more mast rake.

Cheers!

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2004 Hobie Bravo - "Cheap Thrills" [Sold]


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 13, 2015 4:34 am 
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Location: Detroit, MI
jdzl wrote:
1. Unsure, the boat is a '78. The Keoke sails could be original or very close? The Tequila Sunrise set (cut down from another boat) looks to be newer, but still well used / worn. Safe to say they're at least 20+ years old, if not more - and have seen a lot of use.

The Keoke sails are definitely original. The Tequila Sunrise ones are probably from an 18 (the 17 never has had a TS pattern - the cut of the sail and the material are very different).

Hobie brand sails are the best, but they're more expensive. You get what you pay for. If you go the aftermarket route, then Whirlwind is probably a better choice than Intensity. The owner of Whirlwind, Chip Buck, used to work at the sail loft at Hobie.

Hobie branded sails are still made in the USA. Many aftermarket sails are made by China Sail Factory (seriously, that's the name of the company) and resold in the US by Intensity and other resellers.


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 13, 2015 11:31 am 
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Location: Oakland, CA
jdzl wrote:
1. Unsure, the boat is a '78. The Keoke sails could be original or very close? The Tequila Sunrise set (cut down from another boat) looks to be newer, but still well used / worn. Safe to say they're at least 20+ years old, if not more - and have seen a lot of use.

2. I'm replacing the standing rigging (bridles, forestay, shrouds) now anyway - piece of mind and to get more mast rake.

It is a very good idea to replace the standing rigging, but if you go with Hobie rigging then the increased rake will cause your old jib to flutter something fierce at the leach since it is not cut for the new angle and probably a bit blown out.

If you replace the sails then replace the rigging at the same time.
If you replace just the rigging then have new rigging made to the old lengths, with maybe a little bit of rake.

Raking the mast of a 16 is a good thing, but your old jib has a limit.


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 14, 2015 3:34 pm 
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Location: Harsens Island, Michigan
The other thing to be aware of is that they positioned the mast step on the front crossbar back a bit when they changed the rake, so that it aligns better. Too much mast rake without changing the mast step location could be a concern...

It all works together, which is why I have been hestitant to make changes to my boat. I don't want to spend more on it than it is worth, and by the time I get all the 'upgrades' it would have been cheaper than just getting a new boat!

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1979 Hobie 16 "Orange Crusher"
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 25, 2019 9:32 am 
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ASDASC wrote:
The other thing to be aware of is that they positioned the mast step on the front crossbar back a bit when they changed the rake, so that it aligns better. Too much mast rake without changing the mast step location could be a concern...

It all works together, which is why I have been hestitant to make changes to my boat. I don't want to spend more on it than it is worth, and by the time I get all the 'upgrades' it would have been cheaper than just getting a new boat!


Is this true?? I thought that it was in the same place on the crossbar with a different casting angle.
what about the crossbeam & dolphin striker?

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 08, 2019 9:41 pm 
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OK, it's funny reading this old resurrected post and seeing something I wrote and forgot about. Interestingly, I haven't changed anything on my boat, but did buy a set of European Championship sails when Hobie US aquired Hobie Europe a couple years ago. Everything works great with the new sails, although I did have to cut down some of the battens. I love the velcro jib battens!!

I do run with more mast rake now, but not enough to need the new base or step. I added a chainplate on the forestay. Of course, I don't have the rudder adjustments on my '79 boat, so I have to deal with the extra weather helm. It really is all designed to work together, so you do give up things when you sail a Frankenboat made of parts from all different years.

It's gotten me hooked enough to REALLY want one of the Worlds boats from Captiva this year...

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1979 Hobie 16 "Orange Crusher"
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