Race Ready questions

Hello to all,

I am new to the forums. I have the opportunity to purchase an older 1980 to 1990 Hobie Cat 16. I understand the issues about the integrity of the hulls, but I am wondering if it is worth it to purchase and then have to replace many of the items on the boat to make it race ready. Such as the trampoline, sails, rudders etc. The other option is to purchase new. Not sure which way to go.

Thank you in advance, Rick

This is easy, and it's not a question of money.

An early '80s boat is heavy and you just can't fix heavy.

From '84 to about '86 was a time period of light boats, but ones that aren't broken and worn out by now are very, very rare.

Boat weights were finally brought under control in the early '90s and boats were near minimum weight when new - but boats tend to gain weight as they get older.

A post-'96 boat will have the integrated traveler tracks that are highly desirable.

If you're serious about racing, you'll want new sails anyway. Anything over a few years old (especially the jib) will be suspect.

The best way to get a race-ready boat is to buy new. There have been so many little changes to the boats in the past 30 years that they make a huge cumulative difference in how the boats feel and perform. You get all those changes in a new boat.

I have an '82. Last week I forgot my main sheet and blocks and had to use my backup set, which is original. Oh, my God!. Huge blocks, impossible to adjust right, massive frustration. The improvements to the H-16 do matter.

An old boat is cheaper up front. You get to decide what and when you improve on it. But it's always going to be heavier (just like most people, boats gain weight as they age) and even with your upgrades it will take you a long time and thousands of dollars of improvements before you get it up to modern standards. And it still won't match a new boat.

New boats are more money up front, but less to maintain for a long time. There's a reason why professionals get new boats on a frequent basis and new sails even more frequently.

For racing, even a drop of 1% in performance is significant. 1% translate out to 10 feet every thousand feet traveled. In a race that is 2 nautical miles long, you're talking about 12,000 feet or about 120 feet that a 1% decrease will cost you? If you have a 10% decrease in performance, you're talking 1,200 feet. Can you sail so much better to make up these sorts of distances?

You want to be on the podium? Buy new. You want to have fun? Either approach works. I can race mid-fleet. I can have a beer during the race and I don't care. I can take a newbie out for a race and introduce them to the sport and not care how we do. I'll laugh instead of scream when the newbie gets washed down the side of the boat and any chances we might have had go down the toilet. I'll laugh at myself when I make tactical mistakes. And at the back of the fleet, not only can I have a beer, I can get close to my buddies in the back of the fleet and toss them a beer. We can have fun back there.

This is all about what you want from racing and how much money you have in the budget.

Jim

@jclarkdawe

Wow good advice here. I already have a boat and on a scale of hobie's, it's pretty recent. I'm into racing, but am trying to fix the bigger things in my racing before being picky about those things which will do the remaining 1% of the performance etc.

Still, I'd like to say thanks for your advice. Once I find some consistent crew I'll be sure to upgrade to a new boat.

I do have one question though. About how much weight over how much time do you estimate a boat would gain? Like, what is the rate of weight gain of the boat over time? It probably depends on how much you sail it, and how you store it. So, let's just consider all scenarios.

If you're at all serious about racing, I would suggest you buy a boat no older than from about 2000. Anything older, unless stored in a barn for the past 20 years, will be too worn out to be competetive. If you aren't competetive (or just feel that you aren't competetive), you probably aren't going to have much fun. Obviously if you are just starting out, you probably aren't going to be leading the fleet. But being DFL every race gets old real fast.

sm

We say "weight," but there's actually several factors that I'd include in this. The metal gets older and has more wobble, the rudders are a heavier yet not as stiff, and some other minor stuff. But we have hulls that weigh different amounts depending upon year of manufacture as a starting point. Any repair work, bottom jobs, paint, and gel coat all add to your weight.

But your question is how much water does a hull soak up. There are two sources of water -- leaks and condensation. Condensation should be relatively minor, although air humidity makes a difference. Leakage is vastly different between boats. Once the water is in your hull, the next question is how fast do you get it out. And how thoroughly. We can also throw in the quality of the workmanship inside the hulls in determining how well sealed the fiberglass is. I'm not sure how much foam there is inside our hulls. Oh, and all those chips and scrapes off your hull shave the weight down.

So tons of variables to make any comparing boat to boat relatively meaningless. I'm not sure any engineering types have done a study. The boat manufacturing industry really doesn't care about this factor, as it only applies to used boats. There are very few manufacturers who support their product like Hobie does.

Weight of hulls according to MBounds is 83 to 90 pounds stripped. A gallon of gelcoat weighs 9 - 10 pounds. So gelcoating both hulls would add about 5 pounds per hull, or slightly more than 5%. A gallon of water weighs 8 pounds. If your hull soaks up a gallon of water, that's about 9%. Paint also adds weight.

I've got a set of extra hulls that are disconnected to the boat. Tomorrow I'd see if I can get a weight on them. By the way, I'd worry more about the condition of my sails rather than the weight of my hulls.

I understand SRM's argument of DFL is not a fun place to be. But you also have to adjust your goals and think about this. If you want the podium, you're going to pay money and spend time. If that's worth it to you, that's great. But racing can and should be fun on other levels.

Last Saturday my fleet did its annual race. I took as crew a guy who is a boardsailor, but had never been on a boat. He's thinking of buying a H-16 and wanted to try it. Okay, so some experience, but not a whole lot. He didn't know where his weight should be, had to be guided through sail sets, and I did better later in the day at tacking sailing by myself. I'm still getting used to the fact that cats have some serious limits on pinching. Course was an upwind/downwind.

First race we were still on shore. I was having a problem with setting up the main sheet and I wanted to give my crew an idea of what going out on the wire meant. Second race, we end up drifting to the line too fast, had to go around and try again, and blew the tack. Over the line way late. Not much we can do with the race.

Third race I missed a horn and got behind the start. Again, not much we can do. Fourth race we're not in bad shape at the start. Not as much hustle upwind as I would have liked, but the old main sheet really sucks for setting up. We also underlay the mark. We round the upwind mark next to last, with two boats ahead that we stood a chance on. They went one way, I went the other. I felt we'd get better wind, and we'd also have the chop behind us on the way to the line. I'd also avoid a gybe. Just as we're getting close to the gybe point, a heavy boat passes us on the outside of the course. I decide to gybe a smidge early, figuring I'd pick up some surfing from the boat wake, which would blend into the chop but heighten its effect.

Yes, a H-16 doesn't surf well, but it does give you a gain. End result was I passed the two boats I thought I stood a chance of gaining on. I think we finished with three boats behind us. Not at the front of the fleet, but pretty well done all things considered, and my crew is very excited. Fifth race he decides to try the wire. We do about a hundred feet, and then he's going for the ride along the side we've all been on. Finally get him back on board but way behind. Instead of finishing the race, I showed him what a 16 will do on a reach. We had water flying all over us. Ended up doing about 11 - 12 knots in a lot of chop.

End of the day was DFL. But I had fun, and helped convince someone that buying a 16 makes sense. I figure I won just as much as the guy on the podium.

Expectations and goals. Racing can be a lot of fun even if you aren't the greatest sailor if you manage your expectations and goals.

And some fleets are beginning to do a class for the older boats if there are enough of them.

Jim Clark-Dawe

Nice work!!

_________________
1980 H16

Thank you to all for your advice. Really puts into perspective what it will take. Currently, the only experience I have is a ride on a Hobie way back in 1976. Had a great time and really got the bug but couldn't afford it. So now here I am ready to purchase and learn. I am scheduled to take some lessons and then hope to join a nearby fleet. Closest fleet is 3 hour drive one way. Yup, I am out in the middle of no where. So realistically I would put a few years of learning and fun sailing before I felt ready for racing. I was just wondering how to make the dollar go farther. AS for DFL, (I had to think on that one, new terms and all) Yes I would be that or nearby however as all of you have said, it wouldn't be fun at all if I started with a boat that didn't have a chance to be competitive. Your input and advice is well taken and will help me a lot in my purchase.

Thank you, Rick

I guess I'm just from TX, but for a race on our circuit 3hrs isn't a bad drive one way for a good race. My race this weekend will be 5 hrs away.



The best way to learn is to get racing. You're faster and really get superb advice from others, along with the interaction and camraderie of the whole thing. If you have a boat and are interested in racing, I'd suggest racing it as much as you can given that you have the time and money to do it.

There's also handicapped racing, so you don't necessarily have to race other hobie 16s. Handicapped racing can be fun, cheaper, closer, and more frequent than purely racing one design. Most of my racing so far has been handicapped instead of one design. Still, I can't wait to have 4 H16s at my race this weekend.

Start racing as soon as you can. Beginning racing often just focuses on Rule 10 and 14 (port/starboard and don't hit the other boat). Some people will be super competitive, but many will be there for the fun. And what racing will teach you is how to put the boat where you need to be. This is incredibly different from cruising. You'll learn what a lay line is and why it matters. (Nothing teaches you more than being five feet short of an upwind mark and have to do a double tack to get around the thing. You'll learn sailing with the double tack penalty, and if you sail with me, you'll probably learn some words you shouldn't know.)

People will show you tricks you haven't thought of. What's worse is they'll show you tricks you should have thought of but didn't. I'm rarely around other boats when I don't pick up some new trick. It might be minor stuff, but it all adds up.

And I'll bet that after a few races you'll have boats sometimes finishing behind you.

I'd also crew before I paid for lessons. You won't probably sail with the top guns in the fleet, but a lot of good sailors don't mind teaching crew. You'll start to develop the instincts you need to survive. To win races, both sailors need to know when to hike and when to go to leeward. They need to know how much of a submarine you can be before you pitch-pole. And you need to know how to shift on the boat to get your bow up. If you crew with me, once I trust you and the weather is cooperating, I'll let you helm.

If you're serious about competition, you'll spend a lot of time traveling. Friday you get out of work and drive like hell to the event. Sunday you drive like hell to get home so you get enough sleep to make it through work on Monday. Monday night you'll be washing down your boat, cleaning gear, and fixing whatever you broke. Three hours one way will seem like you're not even getting the engine warmed up. At least sailing is usually at the same venue on Saturday and Sunday.

And might I suggest trying out SailX on the Internet. It's a virtual simulator of sailboat racing, including a cat as one of the classes. It's all about learning wind shifts and current and rules and out-guessing your competition. You'll figure out why wind shifts matter in Lasers but by and large are ignored in cats. You'll learn lay lines and develop some idea of how to pinch. (Hint -- waiting until you're thirty feet from the mark does not usually work.) You'll see the effects of wind shadows.

I remember when bicycle racing was beginning to get popular in the US again. A famous French coach had come to the US and a magazine was asking him what a rider needed to do was succeed. The coach said, "Ride." The magazine asked what else. The coach thought a bit, and then said, "Ride more." Somewhat a joke, but in the beginning, sail and compete every chance you get. Beg ride on other boats. Crew and ask questions. But sail, sail, sail.

Jim Clark-Dawe

Not correct. Light hulls are in the <70 lbs range.

Really? A Hobie 16 actually surfs fairly well. After all, Hobie invented the boat to play in the surf on the days when the wind ruined the waves for surfboard surfing.

Matt -- The weight is from a previous post of yours. I've never bothered to weigh an individual hull.

If the waves are big enough, any boat will surf. This was about two foot chop that weren't breaking. Kinetic energy wasn't high and you needed to get up on a plane in a small dinghy to benefit from the waves in any significant way. I could probably have picked up twenty or so boat lengths in a Laser. I figured I gained about five boat lengths from surfing. Not a big number, but enough to help. Most of that was from the boat wake merging with the chop. By and large the boat was slicing through the waves as it's designed to do.

Jim Clark-Dawe

I searched for the post and the only ones I can find are two posts from 2010 - one from me and one from Matt Miller, both confirming that light hulls are <70 lbs.

Five BLs is significant. Any time you can catch the front of a wave and stay on the "downhill side", you are surfing, even though you aren't planing. Working the waves is a very important downwind technique - and the lighter your boat, the easier it is.