Advise/Tips for first time buyer - Please Help

Hi all, I am new here and am looking into buying my first Hobie Cat.

I am looking at a Hobie 14 standard.

Here is what I know:
-Asking price: $1,500.00
-3rd owner is the seller
-Year is 1980's or 1990's
-Trailer included
-Floats, trampoline, sails in good condition according to seller
-There appears to be discoloration on the hulls from the boat sitting in the water (Picture Below)
-Trampoline appears to be white
-Floats appear to be white

Picture:


Is $1,500.00 too high? I was thinking more along the lines of $1,000.00 is this too low?

Can anyone provide some tips to determine if I should pursue this boat? I have read about people talking about "soft spots" and "delamination" in the hulls. Can someone in detail desribe what these things are and how to detect them? Can someone give me a ballpark year estimate based on the picture and the details I have listed?

Thanks very much in advance!
cdogg

Boats left in the water = very bad.

Press all over the boat with the palm of your hand (especially on the decks in front of the crossbar). If they give at all = soft spot > run away.

$1,500 is way too much.
$1,000 is probably too much.

I bought my 14 that looked exactly like that (minus the water stains) with a trailer for $1,000. It's an '85, in perfect condition and weighs 2 lbs over minimum weight.

Maybe someone who knows 14's can answer- that 14 has a bright aluminum mast- don't only the older pre-1983 and pre-comptip boats have a bright aluminum mast?

I got an excellent '86 H16 with great hulls, tramp, sails, EPO rudders, and trailer for $1100.

_________________
Alan
'86 H16, Sail #89057

Thanks so far for your valuable advice.

I read on the forums here that the Hobie 14's tiller arms were changed from bent to straight at one point in time. Does anyone know when this was?.. This boat im considering buying clearly has bent tiller arms per the picture.

I asked the seller over e-mail to provide the serial but she said she couldnt see it because the boat is in the water. This leads me to believe the serial is not on the pylon, but on the transome(s) just under the lip of the deck. I think the serial location was changed from pylons to transome in 1976, but i could be wrong.

Thanks again in advance for any further tips/advice.

My '85 has clear anodizing. It was '83 when the tiller arms were straightened - same time that rake-adjustable castings were introduced. Serial numbers went from the pylons to the transoms in 1973.

I cannot emphasize enough how bad it is for the boat to store a Hobie Cat in the water.

MBounds, I'm not doubting someone who has 1500 posts such as yourself, but can you please explain why it is bad for Hobies to be left sitting in water just over summer? I value your advice.

Cdogg

Besides the mechanical wear of being constanly in motion (accelerated wear on pins, wires, tangs and anything that moves), which can be fixed, the effect on the hulls is irreperable.

Gelcoat (especially old gelcoat) is porous. When constantly immersed, osmosis will draw water in, forming blisters:


If it goes on long enough, the water will find it's way past the relatively thin layer of fiberglass and into the foam core. Cycles of hot and cold will literally pump water throughout the layup, accelerating delamination and breaking down the strength of the fiberglass.

This won't happen overnight. It takes a long time (years). While the boat may feel solid, once the water is in the laminate, it's doomed. Look for blisters and weigh the boat to see if it's abnormally heavy.

Personally, I just avoid boats that have been stored in the water.

Could someone please explain what delamination is?

As far as I understand it the cross section of Hobie cat hulls are built as the following sandwich:

| fibreglass | foam | fibreglass | gel coat | ~~~Water~~~

is delamination when water gets into the foam core and erodes it away causing a void that allows the outside layer of fibreglass to be able to be pushed in? Is this what causes "soft spots"? Sorry if this is a dumb question I just never really found a clear answer.


Aside from the foam sandwich I have desribed above, is it true that in front of and behind the pylons the hulls are hollow, and in between the pylons there is a bunch of foam stuffed in there for floatation?

Thanks
Cdogg

Delamination is when the fiberglass layers lose their adhesion to the foam layer. It typically happens on one side (usually the outer side).

The entire hull is hollow. Between the pylons, there is a block of foam that provides positive flotation should the hull become filled with water.

Go here to see examples of both: http://www.thebeachcats.com/index.php?module=pictures&g2_itemId=10884

MBounds, thanks for that link. Those pics answered a lot of questions I had about the hull construction of Hobie 14's.

I am a little nervous about the fact that 14's don't appear to have stainless steel backings to attach the gudgeon or bow tangs to, it looks like its just screwed into fibreglass. The "punch through" of the pylon columns is also worrysome to me. Someone said one of their pylon supports sank in about 2 inches, Im guessing that is not repairable..

The emergency floatation foam in the hulls looks much narrower than the hull itself, how are these afixed to the hull? They appeared to be just sitting in there free to move around on their own.

Cdogg

On the subject of the gudgeon backing plate, the Hobie 14 does have a metal backing plate that the gudgeon bolts to, however on some boats the plate can corrode to essentially dust. I recently repaired my 1978 Hobie 14 hulls, and the plates were so badly corroded and damaged that I simply replaced them with varnished wooden blocks, which work just as well.

Pierre

The backing plates for both the gudgeon bolts and the bridle tangs are aluminum.

The flotation blocks are not attached to anything - they generally settle in to one position and don't move around much. If you have the hulls off the frame and roll them over (like if you're working on them), you can hear the foam block clunk around. It's no big deal.

A loose pylon is easily repaired with the addition of a deck port.

Matt or Matt,

I would think the best way (strongest structurally) to repair a delam deck or a loose pylon is NOT to add a port in front of the forward pylon since that reduces the deck thickness to one layer of plastic and weakens the fg-foam-fg deck sandwich (which is an I-beam), but instead cut an access hole in the inside face of the hull for access, make the repairs, then patch the hole with a fg-foam-fg patch. This would allow access for almost any repair- fix pylon, resin injection in deck, add a reinforcing deck beam under a soft spot, etc. and the repaired access hole patch would be stronger and not visible if done right. Repair of the access hole would be fg-foam-fg as demonstrated in the (West System?) videos.


Comments?

_________________
Alan
'86 H16, Sail #89057

I've seen many boats with ports cut in the deck forward of the pylons. I put one in my own 16 when the pylon shoe cracked and needed repair. I had no problems for the 4 years I owned the boat after its surgery and the boat is still being used today, 15 years after (I sold it to my dentist who gives me an update every six months).

While structually it's not the ideal location, it's not a fatal flaw. You have to visualize the forces acting on the hull.

The main forces on the forward part of a Hobie 16 are upward and inward. The triangular shape of the hull is ideally suited to resist these forces - the hull-deck joint actually bears much of the load. The outer deck lip and keel are in tension; the inner deck lip is in compression.

The laminate provides panel stiffness between the corners. The outer hull is in tension, the inner is in compression. The deck sees a lot of shear force, which is why that tends to delaminate first (besides being stepped one, pushed against and beaten on by the sun).

The better location for a port to fix a front pylon is behind it, but you may run into problems with the foam block being in the way. Usually a good shove will force it back against the rear pylon and give you enough room to work.

The disadvantage to this method is that you need to take the boat apart to do the work - and you can't use the port to store stuff while you're sailing since it's under the trampoline.

Definitely not from the 90's, and doubtful that it's from the 80's. More likely that it's from the 70's or possibly even the 60's. If you look closely at the rear crossbar, you can see that the traveler control lines lead out to V-cleats at the end of the bar. This was the original set-up before the center-mounted cam cleats were incorporated - quite old.

As has been emphasized by others, more important on a boat this age is the condition of the sails, hulls, trailer, and other major components.

I don't think I'd pay more than $700 and that's assuming that the hulls are solid and all the components are in reasonable and sailable condition.

sm