Can a Hobie Tandem Island flip?

Bob,
I noticed in your picture above that your nylon safety line goes from the AMA eyelet to somewhere on the side of the main hull. Would you recommend against going to the eyelet on the bow? Would that be a hardening no-no? I was just thinking that might relieve some stress on the sheer pin and also help keep the AMA from folding in on a pin break.

Thanks,
Walter

Keith,
After watching your video clip I can see now why you are so against the tramps, and yes if I was sailing like that, in those conditions I would be too.
Once I got the tramps my days of sitting passively in the seat, watching the AI's lee ama submerge in strong winds ended. Why? Because I was sitting out on the tramps and the boat became balanced. I was sailing faster and the risk of capsize became negligible.
Nowadays of course I use the haka (positioned over the tramps) which do a much better job than the tramps of providing a stable seat.
I couldn't go back to the style of sailing demonstrated in your clip.
So I should clarify that my passion for the tramps (and haka) is dependant an actually getting out and sitting on them.
If that can't be done, then yes I agree with you that tramps could contribute to a capsize and you'd be better off without them.

Re the shear pins-
Just because a pin breaks and an aka collapses it is NOT automatic that a capsize will occur.
The three pin breakages I've experienced have all been due to collisions. On each occasion a capsize did not occur, even though the winds were quite strong.
I've posted this clip before but it demonstrates well just how stable the Islands are:
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CsWwV245rFQ[/youtube]

For those interested the original post has some relevance to this discussion and can be found here:
viewtopic.php?f=70&p=165764#p165764

BTW- if tramps are correctly fitted an aka collapse will not occur even if the brace pin shears. Tramps also make it less likely that an aka will come undone from the crossbar.

Yes, despite using hakas, I have not gotten into "riding hakas." There are a couple reasons for that, (1) I frequently solo sail (I was solo in that video above), and I think riding the hakas increases the likelihood of falling off the boat, (2) I don't have a good tether system--hence, I don't want to fall off my boat, (3) much of my sailing is on camping trips, often solo, and the hakas have gear on them with very limited seating space. This situation might encourage risky behavior (finding space to sit) further risking falling off my boat. (4) Riding a haka for 3, 4, or 5 hrs doesn't seem all that fun. For these reasons, I have never gotten into riding hakas. I'm not getting any younger and may never get into it.

I also remember a comment by NOHUHU--something like, "If you sit on the hakas, you will fall off, so you want to be tethered to your boat."

I certainly agree with you, Stringy, that riding the hakas will increase speed and reduce ama diving. Clearly, tramps are a safety accessory for riding hakas.

Fortunately, we all sail to a different drummer--that is what makes this forum so interesting.

Keith

_________________
2015 AI 2, 2014 Tandem

"Any intelligent fool can make things bigger and more complex ... It takes a touch of genius and a lot of courage to move in the opposite direction." A. Einstein

"Less is more" Anon

Agreed Keith ...and it's what makes the Islands the most versatile craft out there!
Your points about haka riding are well made. Hiking out the first few times, I was aware that the risk of falling off could be increased, however that's never happened. I have enough experience now at riding haka that I'm confident it's unlikely, though of course possible. Holding onto the mainsheet and the hiking stick help with balance, as does my latest haka with the cushions that create a slight indent between the rungs, making it less likely to slip off. If I'm solo in open waters I will attach the mainsheet to my PFD.
As I am soloing the TI mostly these days I'm looking at mounting some straps for my feet on the rails as well.

Here is a comment today from Rene Potvin on another thread.

Good advice.

Keith

_________________
2015 AI 2, 2014 Tandem

"Any intelligent fool can make things bigger and more complex ... It takes a touch of genius and a lot of courage to move in the opposite direction." A. Einstein

"Less is more" Anon

Walter, leading the "safetyline" from near the mast back to the padeye near the ama handle provides plenty of triangulation, and in addition, as I suspect the most likely direction forces will come from is against the ama bow, this angle of safetline will directly assist. On the other hand, a safetyline leading back from the bow would go slack if the brace pin broke..

If I need to fold in an ama while out on the water, I first release my spray skirt, and then fold the ama >forward<.This means that the safety line to the centre ama padeye is not affected at all.

BTW, I only tend to connect the safetylines if circumstances warrant it (eg forecast20+ knots, or going outside into the ocean)

_________________
Tony Stott
2012 Tandem Island "SIC EM" with Hobie spinnaker

Great points. Thanks!

Totch:
When adding that safety line you want to make sure it's stretchy nylon (I used 1/4"). To test it just remove the brace and push back on the AMA, it will push back about a foot or so but won't completly fold in. In later versions I did move the connection to the back of my bow sprit (about a foot back from the front of the bow) then ran the line thru some 3/8 dia PVC tubing, then incorporated my super heavy duty spray skirts into the mix, now I can sit on the spray skirts or load gear on them (though I don't because I try to have as much weight as aft as possible when underway), but when we are snorkeling people can now climb into the boat over the spray skirts, or sit on them to put their fins on. If you want to be double safe you can also add a second one to the rear brace making a V truss.
If done correctly the safety line does not prevent the nylon bolt from breaking, but I does prevent the AMA from folding in completely, and prevents the aka bars from coming out (been there done that), and a side benefit it keeps the AMA's from rattling around, simple and easy to do....and could save your life of things go bad in harsh conditions.
That's all
Bob

Just flipped my 2016 TI 20-25 MPH variable winds. Exactly the reason why I sold my bravo was to avoid this situation.
Was furled upwind and then unfurled downwind into a reach. Simply picked up a gust, buried the arma and within 5 seconds or less in the drink with no time to release the main sail. Actually very similar to how my Bravo would tip. The arma pin broke and it took a bit of an effort to lean back enough to right the boat.
Anyone who has experienced flips and figured how to do a better job of preventing in the future please let me know!!
Also is it normal for the TI to be "heavier" and slower than the Bravo in light winds?
Maybe there is something wrong with my setup to begin with??
Thank you!

Use Hakas Rob. Get your weight out and back. It raises the leeward Amas. Check your rudder lines for slop and be more gentle with the rudder as your speed picks up. Put the daggerboard away when downwinding.

Other than breaking an Aka pin, the easiest way to capsize a TI is to be caught on the wrong side tramps during a wind shift, (unexpected gybe) so you have to be careful not to sail anywhere near dead downwind in heavy, shifting air.

If you take along a crew, have them keep the sheet in their hands, uncleatd to be safe.

_________________
The Wind Is Your Friend...

_________________
2015 AI 2, 2014 Tandem

"Any intelligent fool can make things bigger and more complex ... It takes a touch of genius and a lot of courage to move in the opposite direction." A. Einstein

"Less is more" Anon

Robcut1:
I have experienced my aka nylon brace pin breaking when my AMA buries in the water. Obviously causing insta capsize (Keiths word). When going slow the sheer pin holds up fine, but when speed picks up the force of the water on the AMA increases exponentially. This is why I always recommend adding the safety ropes, because you never know, the sheer pin is like a ticking time bomb.
FE

From an engineering perspective, you are far better off adding a stretchy "keep out line" either from bow to the outside of your front ama, or from the inner mount of your front ama to the handle on the ama, than stiffening up the brace pin.

If the forces cannot break the brace pin, you stand a reasonable chance of actually damaging the aka.

_________________
Tony Stott
2012 Tandem Island "SIC EM" with Hobie spinnaker

Yes, I woke up at 4:30 AM thinking, "I should have told Robcut1 about keep-out lines!" Their are many variations on keep-out lines. All are intended to keep the aka/ama extended in the event the aka-brace pin breaks and avoiding an insta-capsize.

Mine are described here http://www.hobiecat.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=70&t=7276&start=900 Scroll down until you come to "Modification of Keep-Out Lines."


Of course, Tony, but if the Nylatron pin can still break and is stronger, I think you have added a bit of safety to your Island. I and others (probably Robcut1) have capsized because of Hobie's philosophy of "one size fits all", i.e., the same Hobie aka-brace shear pin for the original AI, the AI 2, and the Tandem. Some people are using the stronger Nylatron pin to replace the Hobie pin. We should hear soon enough, if that is causing a problem.

There are several downsides to Hobie's "one size fits all" philosophy regarding the brace shear pin. (1) people sailing in cold water may be in serious physical danger if their AI/Tandem insta-capsizes due to Hobie shear pin breakage. (2) Some people replace the Hobie pin with a SS pin to avoid the problem--an SS pin will not break, but can lead to other problems if some sort of collision occurs. (3) Some people using hakas fasten the hakas on so tightly that the hull-aka-ama becomes a rigid system, again leading to other damage if a collision occurs. As Stringy has pointed out, people using tramps rather than hakas, effectively avoid this last problem.

I have wondered why we have not heard more examples of Tandem Islands breaking shear pins in open water with insta-capsize. It may be that the tandem with its longer, wider hull just rides higher with less chance of the leeward aka/ama being submerged and hitting a wave forcefully.

Keith

_________________
2015 AI 2, 2014 Tandem

"Any intelligent fool can make things bigger and more complex ... It takes a touch of genius and a lot of courage to move in the opposite direction." A. Einstein

"Less is more" Anon