NC - Hobie Tandem Island 2015 dune - 5000

Tony, my comment was aimed more at Tom Kirkman who said that "under normal conditions no further 'safety modifications' are required." He is basically saying that all the modifications that you, I, FE, et al, make are unnecessary. Now, he does qualify it by saying under "normal" conditions, without specifying what "normal" is.

OTOH, you do say, "There is no need to wait for Hobie to make any changes to the TI to make it safe...." Yes, no need to wait as long as the user takes corrective actions.

The fact is, my AI 2 and PeteCress's AI 2 capsized under what I would call "normal" conditions. Furthermore, until I reported my capsize, almost no one except FE was using keep-out lines, including you. So, to say those lines would have prevented my capsize is a bit after the fact.

We are paying a lot for these boats. There are some correctable deficiencies. At relatively small cost, Hobie could correct these deficiencies. Instead, Hobie chooses to ignore the problem.

We all tend to say the Islands are very stable boats, and that is a true statement until breaking shear pins get in the mix. All one needs to do is take these boats out in moderate winds of say, 15-17 knots, and, if a aka-brace pin breaks, they risk an insta-capsize if owner is not sophisticated enough to recognize that these boats need to be hardened for those conditions. Hobie, and maybe FE, will say we should not take these boats out in those winds, but, Hobie knows that is when the fun starts.

Finally, no one knows how many capsizes of Islands there are. PeteCress did not report his until I asked him if his 2 aka-brace pin breaks in one day resulted in a capsize. I reported mine because, (1) it occurred in open water from a aka-brace pin break, (2) it occurred on only the 4th time I used the boat and the first time I used it for camping, and (3) it occurred under what I would characterize as "normal" conditions. A friend capsized his AI on Lake Michigan a couple years ago. He was using tramps which may have contributed to the capsize. The capsize was not reported on any forum.

Keith

_________________
2015 AI 2, 2014 Tandem

"Any intelligent fool can make things bigger and more complex ... It takes a touch of genius and a lot of courage to move in the opposite direction." A. Einstein

"Less is more" Anon

Keith, what modifications do you want Hobie to make? (serious question)

_________________
Tony Stott
2012 Tandem Island "SIC EM" with Hobie spinnaker

It would be a simple matter to make keep-out lines standard equipment.

Hobie's "one size fits all" philosophy is detrimental to safety of the boats. The same aka-brace shear pin on all boats, AI, AI 2, and Tandem, just does not make sense. This change, different shear pins for different boats, might require them to make some changes to the akas to strengthen them.

The "one size fits all" philosophy also applies to the rudder and rudder pin. Tell me, does it make sailing sense to have the same rudder on the AI, AI 2, and Tandem. Only if you want to make money, but not from the customer's view point.

Keith

_________________
2015 AI 2, 2014 Tandem

"Any intelligent fool can make things bigger and more complex ... It takes a touch of genius and a lot of courage to move in the opposite direction." A. Einstein

"Less is more" Anon

It is a simple matter to replace the sacrificial plastic pins with pins of stronger material if you're willing to give up that "safety" feature. Granted, that feature is more about protecting the boat than the occupant/s, but the option is there for anyone to exercise if they wish.

It seems I'm not making my point clear. The original shear pin for the AI, developed sometime about or before 2006, is not suitable for the much more powerful Tandem and AI 2. Clearly, this original pin is breaking on open waters with "normal" use of the AI 2.

To say that the owner can avoid that capsize risk by, as usual, trying to figure it out on his/her own with no guidance from Hobie, is neglecting their (Hobie's) obligation to the customer. It falls in the same category as a leaking front hatch--it is up to the customer to come up with a solution totally without guidance from Hobie engineers. That is not enough. It is not that we can't do it, many of us do. It is that Hobie has an obligation to help with these inherent design problems.

Keith

_________________
2015 AI 2, 2014 Tandem

"Any intelligent fool can make things bigger and more complex ... It takes a touch of genius and a lot of courage to move in the opposite direction." A. Einstein

"Less is more" Anon

I have both an AI and a TI. The pins on mine haven't broken and I sail the boats pretty hard. I did eventually go to stainless steel pins on the TI, but only after trouble free sailing for 3 years in what I would think are tougher than "normal" conditions (20+ knots). In fact I only changed them to SS because after 3 years I thought it might be wise to change out the sacrificial pins with new ones and then never got around to ordering more of the plastic ones.

Not saying they can't or won't break, but surely if broken pins were occurring in a large percentage of the boats, Hobie would change them. Hobie hasn't been the type of company to ignore chronic problems.

IN the meantime, the user has the option to replace them with something else if he or she prefers.

Not all owners are healthy enough to afford a capsize. So to these unhealthy owners with no prior sailing experience, information about weak parts or parts that are designed to break are very important in their buying decisions. Parents buying this kayak for the purpose of having fun with their kids takes this kind of information seriously. The small percentage of capsize only matters to serious sailors and healthy individuals. But I think those just wanting to play with their kids wont even look at the percentage of capsize. I think our message here should be based on this group of owners that bring their little kids with them in the trampoline. I know for others capsize is part of the fun.

I think the point is - these boats are not prone to capsize any more than any other boat, and probably quite a bit less.

Agree.

I am by no means a seasoned sailor. My Hobie AI2 was my first sailboat and I added a TI a few months later. I learned to sail in a kayak during multiple Watertribe events. I have over a 1,000 miles behind me in my Hobies and feel like I understand them pretty well. I have never capsized, broken an aka pin, or broken a rudder pin. I am a very cautious sailor!

I don't want to pontificate, but...

If I wasn't confident re-boarding a Hobie AI/TI, I certainly wouldn't venture out in a kayak. The PA17 is much harder to re-board than climbing up on an ama and then onto a tramp of the AI/TI. If you need the dock to board your kayak, you are in the wrong boat. If you can't self-rescue in deep water, you are in trouble.

In my opinion, the AI/TI is fastest and safest when it is running flat. That means you need to reef early and often. I have never felt like I was in jeopardy of capsizing. I always sail with tramps to catch the akas should I sheer a pin. I also have lines from the bow to the front akas if conditions warrant. I have righting lines mounted on each ama - just in case. (I use a 10' length of webbing strap that is mounted through the ama handle bolt by melting a hole through the webbing. The webbing is folded back and forth on itself and then bungied to the top of the ama handle.)

Like any boat, the AI/TI needs to be rigged to meet your specific needs. This forum is full of ideas to harden the boat for "active duty." But, this doesn't mean the boat isn't safe out of the box. Businesses like WEST MARINE make a living helping sailors customize their boats.

Like any boat, you need to know its limitations. This year I ended my Everglades Challenge due to wind, along with the majority of other Hobies. As you reef your ability to go to windward decreases. I had grave concerns about getting blown offshore, and I couldn't peddle it the last 120 miles with the mast on the deck into the wind.

There are many adventures for you and your AI/TI like the Everglades Challenge, Texas200 and Florida120 - and that's just in the southeast! Just take the proper precautions (EBIRB, SPOT, VHF... see Watertribe requirement list) and have a great time.

I'll go sit back down now...

Yakmandu

Couldn't agree with you more Yakmandu. The Hobie Islands, out of the box, are hugely safer than almost all the power boats you see at the local boat ramp. With their huge beam and low centre of gravity, Islands are far, far less likely to capsize. In addition, with the furling sail, it is possible to maintain control in higher winds than any sane person would venture out in, plus you have pedals and paddles to get you home.

Adding about $20 worth of hardening (see my post above), and you have little to fear of any mechanical breakdowns.

If you venture offshore, I would recommend you have a look at the safety requirements for Category 3 offshore yacht racing, and make a good attempt at equipping your Islands to that standard. This would include amongst others:
Flares and water dye markers
Compass (plus Navionics app and compass on your mobile phone)
Torch
First aid kit (not just bandaids!)
Tools to fit everything on board
EPIRB or PLB (not just a mobile phone)
Anchor & line
Manual bilge pump
Spare rudder and aka brace pins
Water (2 litre bottles don't take up much room)
etc etc
* keep stuff safe in dry bag(s), don't rely on the inside of the hull staying dry.

I'm sure you get the picture. It is always better to take something extra with you than to miss it when you really need it.

_________________
Tony Stott
2012 Tandem Island "SIC EM" with Hobie spinnaker

Yakmandu and Tony--excellent advice, very well spoken. Yak, regarding your 10' mesh righting lines, they should be great for righting a turtled AI/TI. Have you tried them?

The WaterTribe Requirements list is a great place to start for small boat safety on challenging, expedition-type trips. The list can be found here: http://watertribe.com/PDF/MustRead/WaterTribeRequiredEquipment.pdf

Keith

_________________
2015 AI 2, 2014 Tandem

"Any intelligent fool can make things bigger and more complex ... It takes a touch of genius and a lot of courage to move in the opposite direction." A. Einstein

"Less is more" Anon

I'm curious about anchors as a safety device on a Hobie. Certainly on a bigger boat not going aground is a valuable option, but I'm struggling to envision a circumstance where I'm going to drop anchor to attempt to stay offshore. Much of the Alaska coast when I will be is cliffs with deep water; an anchor is unlikely to be useful in keeping my off the rocks, and I envision rough seas pounding me even if I could get an anchor to hold. On the other hand, if a beach is available I'm thinking I want to get ashore ASAP, even if I suffer a pounding in surf. I'd be interested in others thoughts and experiences.
andy