Do you leash yourself to an AI/TI ?

I agree with kayaking bob, I never go out alone, but sometimes there are only 2 of us, seems very rare for 3-4 of us to make it out on the same trip. I've done about 30-35 sails and only twice have I felt I was anywhere near getting flipped or tossed out. When I go out the wind waves are usually 1-3', somehow I have avoided the big stuff. Of the times I felt it was almost a close call it was a case where a big wind wave comes along and right as I'm cresting a big gust comes. It seems the worst tack is when we have a NE wind like usual and the waves are out of the north or so and I'm on a east tack. At times the waves (coming at you parallel to the hull) are rolling under you as you rip along on the top of the wave, when that big gust comes the combination can make the AI do some weird things real fast. When I get in those conditions I leash up. I was worried about getting drug around by the leash as well, but one of the local guides thought it wasn't something to worry about. He doubted a full sail AI would drag a 225lb man thru the water for very long. I kind of want to test this one day, I might go to a calm harbor that gets some wind and see what happens, along with intentionally capsizing and then flipping it back over. Seems like the drag would cause the boat to turn into the wind real quick.

What are people afraid will happen if leashed up?

Now that looks like a good book to read in tether weather.

There's probably a chapter in there on paddle and leg leashes. Especially when sailing in cold water (not an issue w/ Bob and I).

It's really open to debate and personal prefs, but I hear OC-1 racing here requires a personal leash.

You can get surf leashes with quick release pins, or good old velcro. Doubt I would ever need the knife.

Bob -Do you leash to the leg or arm?

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The Wind Is Your Friend...

Death is the first thing that comes to mind.

Nohuhu has a very good point about leashes being used on OC-1s. Even in that case there are some doubters, but it is probably a good idea. Those boats are very light, often used in big ocean conditions in races, and can blow away in an instant. The other extreme is whitewater kayakers--you never see them leashed up, and for good reason. Novice whitewater kayakers with poor or no instruction sometimes leash themselves up and die on occasion.

Drgatsea story about 2 AI capsizes in 1 day is incredible. The link:
http://www.hobiecat.com/community/viewtopic.php?f=70&t=9408
I don't think any of us would have wanted to be tethered to that boat. The basic rule in any surf landing "Do not be tethered to your boat." Drgatsea was not landing, but it was a similar situation.

Most of my "expedition" trips are with 1-2 other AIs, however, we are often a half mile or more apart. And, lead boats only occasionally look back to see how the trailing boats are doing. Even if they look back, they probably could not tell if you were still on your AI! A leash would probably be a good idea in open water.

Keith

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2015 AI 2, 2014 Tandem

"Any intelligent fool can make things bigger and more complex ... It takes a touch of genius and a lot of courage to move in the opposite direction." A. Einstein

"Less is more" Anon

I leash to my ankle and carry a large very sharp knife on my PFD not only for the surfboard leash, but for all the other lines on the boat that could entrap. or need cutting in an emergency.

I also use it while fishing. (and it does look cool!)

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Hobie Island Sailing since 2006

I thought we already covered, don't leash up for landing/launching. I should have been more explicit, I'm only talking about leashing up in open water so it doesn't get away from you. I am concerned about death as well, but I was hoping to hear about specific instances related to the AI that people might be worried about when leashing up. If my AI did flip on top of me, I believe the leash is long enough to allow me to swim out from under it. Then there is always the knife like Kayaking Bob said.

JG

I think people who are leashing themselves to their AI, ought to do some safety tests for the rest of us.

Hobie (via Matt, Jim C) is being conspicously quiet on this matter--liability concerns, I am sure. I don't believe Hobie sells a body leash for any of their sail boats or AI/TI do they?

Nevertheless, falling off our AI/TI is probably the most likely accident to happen to us. It seems to me there are fundamental questions of safety when it comes to leashes. (1) Where is the best place to attach the tether to the boat: bow, aka near ama, rear or front crossbar? (2) Where to attach to yourself: ankle, wrist, or PFD? (3) What is the safe length of a leash: 6', 9', 15'?

The answers to these questions are not self-evident to me. I guess, for the preliminary tests, our tester could make a dummy (sack filled with sand and some floatation--about 170#?) and push it over board. Be sure to wear your PFD.

Keith

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2015 AI 2, 2014 Tandem

"Any intelligent fool can make things bigger and more complex ... It takes a touch of genius and a lot of courage to move in the opposite direction." A. Einstein

"Less is more" Anon

They don't call it a "dead-man's switch" for nothing. Eh?

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The Wind Is Your Friend...

Turns out, OasisGuy, this was not a stupid question thread at all.

(1) Where is the best place to attach the tether to the boat: bow, aka near ama, rear or front crossbar?
-My choice is the rear port Aka, just outside the brace. That "should" turn the boat once I become a 180lb drogue.
-Swimming out to the windward side may increase the likelihood of this working,
-Worst case, I hope the boat would just go in circles till I could catch it.

(2) Where to attach to yourself: ankle, wrist, or PFD?
-Left wrist is the most stationary limb (tiller arm). I peddle much of the time, so it's the least likely to cause a snag.
-Attaching to a wrist ensures your head will be ABOVE water, even if dragged and you will have full use of your legs.
-Being right handed, I can also unleash or use the knife effectively like this.

(3) What is the safe length of a leash: 6', 9', 15'?
-Depends how big you want your "kill zone" to be
-at least 9' clear of the boat, coiled or wrapped like Kayak Bobs suggestion.
-For bow attachment, you would need more

If I was tossed and dragged, I would:
1. Yell/radio for help and to alert others of the runaway train. (Probably a waste of time)
2. Drag myself up the rope/leash toward the nearest Aka. (EZ if leash is on the wrist)
3. Kick the rudder with my foot to steer into the wind
4. Uncleat the sheet and or rudder
5. Slide aboard and furl.
6. Peddle toward safety, while resetting the gear.
6. Glance at my watch and nod approvingly, pretending it was all a drill.

How would you handle it?

Keith is spot on in pointing out that there is no 100% safety in numbers, because of the limited visibility at sea, the tendancy to fish apart from each other and having no rear view mirrors. No one can hear you yell, even if they are fairly close.

If you ditch without a leash and your buddy does respond, they will have to choose between you and your wayward boat (EZ choice). But they may never catch up to your AI, with you onboard theirs. Sailing along without you, your Hobie becomes a missile, so as you hitchhike slowly back to shore, you can spend the time contemplating the damages to your craft- and all the liability claims that will be filed against you.

A PFD, leash, and marine radio are your only real defense in open water. But friends and insurance help.

Reminds me - I gotta order that VHF ASAP.

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The Wind Is Your Friend...

Here is the link from my opening post in the Hobie Getaway category where the discussion hinges around being separated from your boat. (It includes a comment from Matt Miller about his 2 mile ocean swim back to shore after a trapeze hook failure)

viewtopic.php?f=23&t=23406

There's been some very good comments on the thread, so thanks for that.

It seems that a Leash summary could go something like....

Sail in company when possible and keep a regular eye out for your mates.

Always release & store any leash before any landing is contemplated.

Always properly carry a knife.

(As well as all other basic safety measures, PFD's, Notification, safety equip etc)

Thanks Nohuhu, just read your last message as I'm about to send this one.

The Insurance comment is a good reminder. I've got cover for theft and damage for about $80 AUD a year. (they specifically leave out 'while in use', but I imagine you could probably find someone to cover that also). I was mainly concerned about theft.

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Yellow 09 Oasis
Red 2010 AI /Grey tramps.

I'm sure this has all been covered before, but two points:

- As anyone who has forgotten to remove their cart can attest, it doesn't take much drag to slow the AI down. You will be an effective sea anchor wherever you are attached to the boat.

- The AI's much derided tendency to weather helm means it will turn into the wind rather than become a runaway missile, even if you are not leashed. That's not to say it won't drift away quicker than you can swim wearing a PFD.

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Just a quick thought on this subject prompted by the mention of the "dead mans switch" - what about a pull relase pin modification on the mainsheet block so the tether would pull the pin and you wouldnt be attached to the AI/TI after inital 'fallout' but the mainsheet would be released? (does that make sense?)

Also in addition or alternatively some sort of tension release or shear release conection to the rudder that on falling out would turn the rudder fully one way before releasing, so that the yak would be sure to circle?

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Hobie Adventure Island (Yellow Papaya)
Hobie Tandem Island (Yellow Papaya)

I wonder if this guy had a leash?

http://picasaweb.google.com/Fishingking ... 6177744498

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CaptRon
"Anything's gonna happen,
it's gonna happen out there"

Looking at the angles, if he didn't he probably landed in the park.

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Yellow 09 Oasis
Red 2010 AI /Grey tramps.

I agree. This is an important thread, OasisGuy, and I think you ought to change the title to something like “Do you leash yourself to your AI/TI?” or “To Tether or Not?” An appropriate title would get more views and interest.

It has taken some time, but I finally realized this is a choice between 2 evils. Once you go overboard: either you are tethered to your boat and risk entanglement and drowning…or, you are not tethered and you risk having your boat drift away. Circumstances may dictate which choice you make. Kayaking Bob indicated this in his comment above regarding when he uses his leash. Nohuhu’s answers to the questions I posed are good; although attaching the lease on the aka anywhere outside the brace presumes which side of the boat you are falling out on, and risks breaking the brace pin and collapsing the ama if you do fall out. Personally, I like attaching it to the rear cross bar. Probably a 9’ leash attached to the rear x-bar would get you out of the kill zone Nohuhu mentions. KB uses a 9'.

No one has jumped at my suggestion to use them as a body-leash tester. However, I’ve got a better plan: our body-leash tester should be a TI owner (KB comes to mind). In the case of a TI owner, the passenger could be the “man overboard” leash testee. The remaining boat operator could then take any action necessary if the testee ran into trouble. The testee should have a pfd on and other safety equipment, like a helmet.

Jms2756’s dead-man’s switch to release the sail would be great. Good idea if it could be done simply and safely.

Regarding Nohuhu’s comment about a VHF radio, almost everyone I kayak with, and all my AI buddies have VHF radios. A radio is an important safety device. I can recommend a Uniden Voyageur (ca. $150). It is reliable and easily broadcasts 2 mi on the water—I keep mine in an Aquapac dry bag. The nice thing about the Voyageur is that the battery can be switched out in a snap. We recently did an 8-day, 100-mi kayak trip along coastal Florida involving a group of 6 people. We were often spread out over a mile, and we used the radios regularly. My first battery lasted 6 days (I talk a lot as leader of the group) and my wife’s lasted the full 8. We carry 2 spare batteries. Everybody’s radio was on every day, all the time we were on the water. When AI sailing, we use the radios to change things on the fly. We change our destination, change the route to the destination, and keep in touch when someone disappears around an island, or to tell them they’ve made a wrong turn around an island, if that is the case. I once used my VHF radio successfully when our flats fishing boat sank. The responder to my SOS was 2 miles away.

Keith

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2015 AI 2, 2014 Tandem

"Any intelligent fool can make things bigger and more complex ... It takes a touch of genius and a lot of courage to move in the opposite direction." A. Einstein

"Less is more" Anon

Done Keith.

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Yellow 09 Oasis
Red 2010 AI /Grey tramps.