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PostPosted: Mon May 18, 2015 10:18 am 
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I'm thinking something below the waterline, not the hatch seal (though that may still be an issue). Heck I sailed mine the other day with 5 people onboard and the drain plug removed. :oops: I think I only had about a cup or two of water in the hull after a couple of hours of sailing/peddling.

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PostPosted: Mon May 18, 2015 12:05 pm 
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Matt Miller: Yep what I consider easy seas 5-8 mph winds. We took a few waves over the top but that is expected. It is a lot of water indeed! Not exactly what I expected from the Hobie TI.

Well I guess I can write off worrying about the front hatches I was really worried since it seemed obvious that's where all the air was leaking.

So I guess we can look again at the scuppers, and the trimming of the forward hatch seal with my dealer on Thursday. I will ask him to file a warranty claim if we are unsuccessful in finding the leak. Last week he came to my house to check for the leak, performed low pressure test and put a few gallons of water in the hull. No leaks any where except in the front hatch. I'm sure he will gladly do it again. With special attention to the scuppers.

Thanks for helping us rule out the front hatch leak.

RG




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PostPosted: Mon May 18, 2015 12:24 pm 
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I have owned 3 TI's now and all the front hatches leak some but 5-10 gallons is excessive. Normal in my boats anyway is a couple cups in light seas, and maybe as much as a gallon in rough seas (hot dogging). I find the front hatch not to be the only entry point, small amounts come in the round hatches and the rear rudder line tubes.
I've done quite a few long trips on mine some times 50-60 milers, the only times I have issues with too much water in the hull is when really pushing the boat too hard (12-15 mph) in rough chop, definately not a fun ride.
I'll be perfectly honest here, even when hardened I don't consider the TI to be offshore capable (CE class 'C'). The boat is a recreational boat designed for protected inland an protected near shore operation. Only a fool would trust such a boat in open offshore operation (the boat is not designed for such operation).
If you are taking in that much water, this is clearly something your dealer needs to addres, this is not normal.
Bob


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PostPosted: Mon May 18, 2015 1:54 pm 
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greshamrl wrote:
Matt Miller: Yep what I consider easy seas 5-8 mph winds. We took a few waves over the top but that is expected. It is a lot of water indeed! Not exactly what I expected from the Hobie TI.

"5-8 mph winds" -- you should have almost zero water in your hull. You have a serious problem, which should be fixed under warranty. In those winds, it cannot be your hatches.

Keith

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PostPosted: Mon May 18, 2015 2:09 pm 
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Hey Bob and Keith. Exactly, Lots of water and there should be almost zero water in the hull. We go out a few miles in the gulf to catch a few fish. Nothing serious and will never go in 20 mph wind which I hear should be nothing for this boat (according to serious TI users on Youtube). I ordered this boat sever months ago. Hopefully, We'll get this issue resolved this Thursday or will file a warranty claim. I have a great dealer. RG


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PostPosted: Mon May 18, 2015 2:22 pm 
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fusioneng wrote:
I'll be perfectly honest here, even when hardened I don't consider the TI to be offshore capable (CE class 'C'). The boat is a recreational boat designed for protected inland an protected near shore operation. Only a fool would trust such a boat in open offshore operation (the boat is not designed for such operation).
Bob

Bob, how are you defining "offshore operation?" People regularly take AI/TIs offshore for deep sea fishing. It seems to me almost everything in Hawaii would be "offshore." "CE class" is a European requirement, not US. Also, when someone at Hobie specifies CE class 'D', is it with or w/o the aka/amas? It is the same as the "capacity" argument. Hobie apparently sets the capacity for the hull only, even though the boats are used with aka/amas most of the time. I would not consider the AI/TI hull-only to be an offshore boat, but the AI/TI with aka/amas is a totally different story. People in California go 22 mi offshore to Catalina Island (SW of LA.) I believe some of the Hobie employees have done that trip. Are they being foolish?

You have to give people some latitude. They are the captain of their boat. They make the decision to sail based on their experience sailing in a variety of conditions. If they are beginners, they need to take more precautions. As they get more experience, as they "harden" their boat, they may sail in more challenging conditions--as captain of their boat, it is their decision. In case of an accident, one can always look back with 20-20 hindsight and say, "They shouldn't have been out in those conditions." A friend of mine once said, when Matt Miller suggested these boats should not be used when small craft warnings were up, my friend said, "Matt, you know that is when the fun starts."

Keith

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PostPosted: Mon May 18, 2015 5:06 pm 
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Could have been quoting me. :twisted: We're always under SCW'S. Somewhere.


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PostPosted: Tue May 19, 2015 1:22 am 
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This thread is about a leaking TI.
Maybe the front hatch, maybe something else. First step is allways to find the leak. All actions depends on where the leak is located.

CE-class or wheather has nothing to do with this. There is no reason to accept non-located leaks. No matter the size of the leak.
Big leaks has to be located and fixed, small leaks has at least to be located. Then it is up you if you can accept the smaller leaks or not.

If you want to go offshore, you better do that in a boat that you know is well prepared for the task.
I have fixed my big leak and located my small leaks and I will secure that the front hatch can't move.
I don't accept water inside the hull and also stuff everything in watertight bags.
After several hours in rough conditions you need to get warm and dry.
Even hypotermia can kill you.
If weather changes while you are offshore - you will end up in condtions you don't like, longer than you like.


best regards
thomas


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PostPosted: Tue May 19, 2015 7:20 am 
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greshamrl:

From your description of events it sounds like you recieved a defective boat from the factory, If it were me I would simply return the boat and get your money back (if it comes down to that), regardless of what Hobies Warranty states, they have to sell you a boat that works and floats (kind of a given (like buying a brand new car with only 3 wheels)), it's simply not your problem if it doesn't work, and not really your responsibility to figure out why. My opinion is it's would be in Hobies best interest to get that boat back to their own factory to determine exactly what went wrong, and promptly get a new replacement boat on order for you (just good business).
If it ends up in claims court (hopefully not) of course you will need to present evidence to that effect, that since day one every time you take the boat out it takes on large quantities of water (ten gallons is not acceptable by anyones standards (you were sold a defective boat). Either you get your money back or a new boat, I wouldn't accept anything less. If it does go to claims court it will likely be a long arduous process where you will need to present compelling evidence to the judge that the new boat you purchased was defective from the factory, so you probably still need to figure out where the leak is and document, just so you can present your case (the burdon of proof is on you). lets hope it doesn't come to that. On anything like this that you purchase, regardless of what the warranty states, it is implied that the boat will work for the intent it was designed for (to float,,,, it's currently a submarine)

Thinking more about the front hatch which is above the water line of the boat, and 90% of any water hitting it is going to harmlessly drain off even if the bungy's straps are not attached, I would think it to be a stretch to be able to get ten gallons of water in through that hatch unless the bow was completely submerged for some period of time. Just because you found that leak first, doesn't mean this is the leaks that is causing that much water to come into the hull (pretty much all the front hatches leak a little just because it's 'not the best' design, but never ten gallons worth).
Just to make sure it's pretty easy to take the boat out with a garbage bag taped over the complete hatch area, using the process of elimination to track down the leaks.
I strongly suspect your problem has nothing to do with the front hatch, the most likely spot is below the waterline in the vertical scupper and drain holes thru the hull, where the top of the deck is connected to the bottom of the hull. When the boat is molded, sometimes the inner walls of those tubes come out too thin, and there is a void or knit line midway up the tube (most likely candidate, and very hard to spot), if this is the case, you get a new hull because this cannot be repaired (should have been caught at the factory, and the hull scrapped). There is a small percentage of defective molded hulls that come out of the mold, that are no good, and need to be simply scrapped (this is normal), it's important to Hobie to catch those bad ones, apparently they didn't catch this one....

If you are taking on that much water you should be able to just put the boat in the water, and sit in it with the hatches open and see where the water is squirting in, it will have the force of a small garden hose in order to get that much water into the hull (ten gallons is a lot of water). You can stick your I phone and a flashlight in there to see areas you can't normally see easily. Laying towels in two or three areas across the bottom will tell you if the leak is in the front, middle or back of the boat, with the hatches open sitting in the boat you will see the water rushing in (process of elimination). Also look closely around the new scupper drain area, that's a new design most of us are not familiar with, and you may have a bad one... I'm pretty sure where ever the water is coming in it will be very obvious, as the boat is sinking (lol). Actually we have a heated pool, that I use for all kinds of testing, during the winter (mostly just for somethin to do lol), if you sink the boat in the pool it is a real bear to get back out of the pool (just lettin ya know)

If it was me I would simply return the boat to the dealer, and let them deal with it, tell them you want your money back or a complete new boat. If the boat was shipped from the factory defective, I would not accept a repaired hull (basically any underwater leak on these hulls scraps the hull, and the hull needs replacement).
By the sounds of your description of events, this was a defective hull shipped from the factory in my opinion. Unless you pulled a real boner and tried to put the scupper cart in the wrong holes or somethin really stupid (not likely) (yes I have done that as well), there is not really anything you could have possibly done to breach the hull (they are actually quite durable).
Hope this helps, of course like always, my opinions are my own.

Bob


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PostPosted: Tue May 19, 2015 7:54 pm 
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Thanks Bob! I will discuss with my dealer on Thursday. He has some ideas, I'm sure. I want to place the hull in my pool Thursday. Hopefully, we'll find the leak. I'm sure Hobie will do the right thing. At this point, I just want to find the leak and get the issue resolved. I was out with my friend when his Adventure Island took on water and was rescued and towed to the beach from 3 miles out in the gulf. His vessel looked like the starship Enterprise. The anas were afloat and his hull was almost underwater. Will post later Thursday the results. RG


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PostPosted: Tue May 19, 2015 8:46 pm 
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It's no mystery RG, a low pressure leak test with soapy water will reveal a hull leak almost every time. No pool required.

Seal the hatches and ignore them. Look for cracks and leaks around the drivewell, scuppers, mast base, drain and beneath the seat. On the new series boats there could be a breach of the daggerwell or lowrance mount, but those are very rare.


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PostPosted: Tue May 26, 2015 1:49 pm 
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fusioneng wrote:
I have owned 3 TI's now and all the front hatches leak some but 5-10 gallons is excessive. Normal in my boats anyway is a couple cups in light seas, and maybe as much as a gallon in rough seas (hot dogging). I find the front hatch not to be the only entry point, small amounts come in the round hatches and the rear rudder line tubes.


Having a bit of water entry as well. Would a gallon in an hour of 12-15 kt winds and 2-3 foot chop with multiple bow submersions be considered normal?

Thanks,

scc


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PostPosted: Tue May 26, 2015 2:57 pm 
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At wind of 12 mph, a gal/hr is too much. At 15 mph, a gal/hr is possible, but indicates your front hatch is leaking. There are a lot of variables: which boat you are talking about (AI, AI 2, TI)? Of course, it also depends on how well sealed your front hatch opening is. A lightly loaded AI 2 and TI should not take on much water, even at winds of 15 mph. An AI loaded for camping may take on as much as a gal/hr if the front hatch is not well sealed. On a camping trip, the AI can take on some water because all the hatch covers are only slightly above water level.

It is possible to reduce water entry by (1) get a good seal on the front hatch--see suggestions above on this thread. (2) Regularly maintain the round hatch seals, i.e., remove all sand from the rubber seal, and then lubricate that seal with silicone grease. Any other lubricant may ruin the rubber seal. Small containers of silicone grease can be found in the plumbing section of a Home Depot or on Amazon (http://www.amazon.com/Danco-Perfect-Match-Silicone-Grease/dp/B000DZFUPC/ref=sr_1_5?ie=UTF8&qid=1432677854&sr=8-5&keywords=silicone+grease)

Keith

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PostPosted: Tue May 26, 2015 7:20 pm 
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Thanks Keith, Well Well, The Dealer and I and a fishing buddy took the 2015 TI to a coastal lake and put it in the water. We sat in the boat to apply weight, front and back but couldn't make it leak (bone dry). We then used the mirage drives (both) and again, dry as could be. Not one drop of water. So then, we applied a round gasket in the groove where the hatch fits and a seal was obtained. We took the TI out for 6-7 hours in 12-15 mph winds in the Gulf, front end dipping into the water every few seconds and after all the misery we could put the boat thru there was no water to be found in the hull. Say what you may, Front Hatch is a DESIGN PROBLEM!!!!!! AT Least on my boat! Bottom is U shaped Hatch cover is V shaped. Hobie is sending another Hatch cover. We'll see how it works. RG


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PostPosted: Tue May 26, 2015 7:29 pm 
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greshamrl wrote:
Thanks Keith, Well Well, The Dealer and I and a fishing buddy took the 2015 TI to a coastal lake and put it in the water. We sat in the boat to apply weight, front and back but couldn't make it leak (bone dry). We then used the mirage drives (both) and again, dry as could be. Not one drop of water. So then, we applied a round gasket in the groove where the hatch fits and a seal was obtained. We took the TI out for 6-7 hours in 12-15 mph winds in the Gulf, front end dipping into the water every few seconds and after all the misery we could put the boat thru there was no water to be found in the hull. Say what you may, Front Hatch is a DESIGN PROBLEM!!!!!! AT Least on my boat! Bottom is U shaped Hatch cover is V shaped. Hobie is sending another Hatch cover. We'll see how it works. RG


Sounds quite conclusive. What did you use for the round gasket?


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