Fully-Swamped AI-2: How Much Water

I agree with tony, the likelyhood of fully swamping an AI/TI is very slim. Most of the times mine has taken in way too much water, the situation was self induced. Where we forgot to close a hatch (our problem not Hobies), or we had the boat out offshore in conditions the boat was not really designed for, or too much gear or too many people on board, again our problem not Hobies and really more speed related than anything else.
The likelyhood of actual hull failure is very slim, so I don't really worry about that one. And in light conditions and fairly flat water (under 1Ft chop) Our TI does take in a little water, typically a few cups of water during the course of the day mostly thru the big front hatch, and the twist and stow hatches. This is all managable with a nice hand bilge pump at the end if the day.
Of course our TI is heavily modified for offshore with big ole sailsets and twin outboards so the boat is capable of much greater cruising speeds over much greater distances over normal TI's. All the associated problems with that are also my problem not Hobies (they didn't design the boat for this). As an example I have posted videos of us cruising in 6-7 mph winds upwind where the boat was traveling around 10mph (our normal cruise speed in light air), and you can clearly see in the video the boat is quite a handful to operate even in very light winds (physically demanding). As winds pick up it gets even more extreme because of the apparent wind. Going upwind in 15mph winds with a forward speed of 15mph thru 2-3ft chop you literally have 30mph winds blowing on your face and over your 130sq ft of sail generating tremendouse horsepower. The boat is quite a handful and you can see the boat flexing and twisting like a gummy bear because of the air and water forces. In those conditions my boat takes in quite a bit more water, I suspect mostly in the front hatch, when I tape over the front hatch I take in much less water, but the next problem is at speeds over 10-12 mph all the scupper holes and mirage slots become drinking fountains, (water coming in, not going out). The entire rear cargo area and rear seating area both completely fill with water and water comes in all the twist and stow hatches. If I had to guess in those conditions I get 1-2 gallons per hr in the hull so I have to stop once in a while to pump the water out.
If we are sailing up to Egmont key for the day (around 25miles each way), I will typically pump the boat out once we arrive, then again when we return with my atwood hand pump, (most of the time I'm pumping out 1-2 gallons of water).
I'll typically burn about a gallon of fuel for the day going the water route up there vs jumping in our truck and driving up there ($25 bucks gas, a little over an hr drive each way), launching ($6 bucks launch fee), then sail the 6-8 miles (about an hour) out to the key.
Bottom line I can live with what I have and feel no need to add a fancy electric bilge pump system at this time. We tend to only go out in winds under 7mph which is already physically demanding. Because the boat sits so close to the water, going out in heavier conditions is beyond my physical abilities and simply no fun for me, besides you can't dive in rough conditions, which most of the time is our main reason for going out in the first place.
I'm perfectly happy with our current setup, and don't have any plans to change anything. I think all boats take in water, that's why they install drains.
FE

My assumption from the start is that a pump without a bung would be useless. ..... It's an integral part of the pumping "System"....

This is partially based on swamping my Malibu Outrigger off of Waikiki a looooong time ago. No problem with floatation, but the chop was washing into the open hatch faster than anybody could bail.

_________________
2015 AI in "Dune" - "The Grey Pig"
2017 Trailex 450 Trailer
Pre-September 2015 cradles
(anybody want to buy a slightly-used AI SpinKit?)
eMail: [email protected]

If your tht concerned about this issue, it wouldn't take much effort to remove one of the twist and stow hatches, cut the bottom out of a hobie dry bag, then attach the dry bag to the outside dia of the opening with a big stainless hose clamp. Then re-insert the twist and stow hatch. If your going thru all that work, you might as well put a bead of silicone around the opening before screwing the hatch down (most of the water comes in thru the outsides, not the seal anyway).
This way if you are out in rough water and the hull fills up (extremely unlikely), then can at least open the hatch, pull the skirt up, and commence pumping. Even if the hatches are completely underwater, you can still pump. By wadding up the bag around the pump wih your hand, you can even pump out a completely submerged hull.
The loose bag shouldn't hinder your ability to store stuff in the hull, the soft bag just pushes out of the way.
I'm not going to do it because I personally don't feel the need myself.
FE

I am going with a simple port in the bottom of one of the drink holders - like TonyStott's: viewtopic.php?f=69&t=46632#p201771

Need to pump; un-screw the port, insert the hose, and pump away.

_________________
2015 AI in "Dune" - "The Grey Pig"
2017 Trailex 450 Trailer
Pre-September 2015 cradles
(anybody want to buy a slightly-used AI SpinKit?)
eMail: [email protected]

Great idea Pete. I'd also echo Tony's warning about becoming a swamped obstuction in a busy shipping lane or channel. (Or surf zone). Well, at least that's one way to quickly draw the attention of the authorities.

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The Wind Is Your Friend...

Today was "Pump Day".... Sailed a couple hours, wind started to drop, sailed to shore.

Pulled the mast, removed the pool noodles that I had stuffed in the stern, folded in one ama, removed the bow hatch, opened up the rear hatch, walked the boat out to chest-deep water and turtled it.

During recovery from turtle, I could actually see the hull sinking as water rushed in through the open hatches.

Once it was upright, I found that it could not be pumped out via the cockpit hatch with me sitting in the boat: water came in the Mirage Drive slot and flowed into the cockpit hatch.

Getting out of the boat gave it enough freeboard (this was in calm water) to pump through the cockpit hatch.

300 strokes (about 30 gallons) got the freeboard up enough that I could sit in the cockpit.

After re-mounting the boat, I realized that the wind was blowing it at a couple of MPH.... so I set the anchor before proceeding.

Another 400 strokes got the boat to where the pump was sucking air much of the time and I could maneuver the boat with no apparent feeling of excess water weight. .... so figure 700 strokes to get it sailing again. ..... Total pumping time 20-30 minutes

Beaching with bow elevated revealed that there were another 10-20 gallons in the hull as that water pooled in the stern.

My Take-Aways:

• * A 5-gallon-per-minute pump is adequate to recover from a swamp in 20-30 minutes time.
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• * It's nice to have an anchor.... A flooded hull may not be sailable, but it blows downwind quite nicely.... -)
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• * The pump's ergonomics need work. I was holding the pump in one hand and pulling upwards with the other - so that too much work was being done by the small shoulder muscles. ..... Next time around I will work something out where it's more of a horizontal motion.
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• * TonyStott's pump port ( viewtopic.php?f=69&t=46632#p201771) is not just a nice-to-have; it is a necessity and anybody who has just a pump and is planning to pump out via the cockpit hatch is headed for an unpleasant surprise once they get more than a certain amout of water in the hull.
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• * More pool noodles or empty bottles or whatever inside the hull are better..... I am going to do my next test when I have enough floatation in there to pretty much fill up the hull.
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• * In-Hull floatation up in the bow area is probably a good idea.... if it can be done while still allowing Mirage Drive storage there.
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• * The pump, of course, needs a hose once the portal thing is installed.... and that hose should probably have a flat weighted thingie on the end so it lays in the bilge such as to get as much water as possible before sucking air.
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• * I am going to start shopping for a foot-operated pump. ..... My long legs make a foot pump laying against the area under the front x-par seem quite attractive.

_________________
2015 AI in "Dune" - "The Grey Pig"
2017 Trailex 450 Trailer
Pre-September 2015 cradles
(anybody want to buy a slightly-used AI SpinKit?)
eMail: [email protected]

Pete:
Your experience pretty much matches our experiences with swamped TI's. In kayak mode (without ama's), it actually gets more difficult because the bow sinks and actually becomes almost too heavy to lift. When practicing in the deap end of our pool putting 2-4 pool noodles in the bow area actually did make it easier to recover the kayak. As you discovered, you kind of need to be in the water next to the boat , (not in the boat) until you get a certain amount of water out, then you can climb in the boat. We have not tried it in rough seas offshore, I would expect the problem to be much worse off shore with waves.
Another problem we have in the keys is the water is pretty shark infested, as divers we pretty much know we have around 30-45 minutes in the water, before the sharks start hovering around the area, they don't come in at us unless they smell blood (spear fishing), but even when not fishing we see them out there. I'm not sayin your gonna get attacked, thats highly unlikely, but I would much prefer being in the boat pumping for an hr or so rather than along side in the water, in open ocean just saying.
Actually with our TI we have several times been out offshore with 3 adults on board in fairly rough conditions where we had to motor back to shore with the stern submerged and me sitting in the back seat with the water up to my waist. All the hatches were underwater so I couldn't open them to pump the boat out, I had to go to shore. In flat water my boat normally only takes in a cup or two of water, it's been that way since day one.
I will likely add a port in my drink holder, sounds like a good idea.

Pete, while I had nicknamed you "Peter Paranoia" (:lol:), I would actually like to sincerely thank you for going to the trouble to deliberately swamp your AI. It was a truly educational exercise.

I will be adding another two pool noodles to the front hatch immediately.

As regards the bilge pump, I added about 18" of 1" ID clear plastic hose to the nozzle, so it will bend when hitting the hull floor. The end of this hose has been cut at about a 60 degree angle, with the tip cut off slightly to ensure the pump can't get stuck to the hull with a vacuum. Hope that makes sense.

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Tony Stott
2012 Tandem Island "SIC EM" with Hobie spinnaker

Pete:
thanks for taking one for the team.
FE

From 9+ years surfing/sailing in Hawaii, I took away this somewhat indelicate fact: it's not just blood that attracts sharks. ..... At least the ones that are evolved to prey on marine mammals..... Those are also attracted to urine.....so the obvious caution applies.... -)

_________________
2015 AI in "Dune" - "The Grey Pig"
2017 Trailex 450 Trailer
Pre-September 2015 cradles
(anybody want to buy a slightly-used AI SpinKit?)
eMail: [email protected]

I can't speak for my mental state - others will have to make that judgement.... but I can say that I actually *enjoy* stuff like seeing how many pump strokes it takes to pump out a hull and what unexpected stuff happens in Real Life....

I wouldn't call it a compulsion... more like "Interesting"..... Couple years back my son-in-law and I moved a 12x14 garden shed about 75'..... We figured out how to make rollers from PVC, how to put tow straps around it and exert force via come-alongs tied to car bumper hitches....and so-forth.... Unexpected problems arose, we worked around them, didn't damage anything, and the shed got moved.

Moving that shed was one of my favorite days in recent memory.

I'm actually looking forward to repeating the AI swamp/recovery once I get the famous TonyStott Pump Port and maximal in-hull floatation installed..... And I'm even looking forward to a third iteration after the in-hull floatation turns out to need a little more work..... -)

_________________
2015 AI in "Dune" - "The Grey Pig"
2017 Trailex 450 Trailer
Pre-September 2015 cradles
(anybody want to buy a slightly-used AI SpinKit?)
eMail: [email protected]