Leaking Forward Hatch

Glad you figured it out. Now time to enjoy the boat!

_________________
2015 Hobie Tandem Island Hibiscus
"Third Normal Form"

• Trampolines
• Hobie cover
• Davis Spar Fly
• Kayakbob's Sprayskirts
• Spine Board Hakas

Well I underestimated my leak. I had my GoPro on when I stopped for lunch at Angel Island (SF Bay) on Saturday. I caught the bilge pump out on video https://youtu.be/lWLqx5DC0MA and counted around 90 strokes with a Seattle Sports bilge pump. This was after a 1-1/2 hr 5 NM sail in 12 kt wind and 2-3 ft chop. Today, I measured each full cycle of the pump at 16 oz. when the end of the pump is full submerged. Granted, the end of the pump was not completely submerged in the video, but even at 25% efficiency, I estimate that I pumped around three gallons.

I'll fill the hull next to try to locate any breech.

So why don't use the round gasket?
Apparently it works.

Best regards
thomas

SCC,

Don't bother filling the hull you'll find nothing. Use nohuhus trick of soapy water and a vacuum set on blow. Almost certainly it is the front hatch, with a trickle in from the rudder lines.
There's loads of ways to fully seal the front hatch, pipe insulation seems to work pretty good and is cheap.
Its so dang choppy hear that I think we experience more hull flexing than other locales., and that flexing is what opens the hatch seal. My opinion of course.

Scc:
You are definately taking in more water than me. On saturday I wanted to go explore the Manatee river, I launched from City Island, the planned trip was 60 miles (round trip) the winds started out from the east at 10-12 mph in small chop (under 1ft). I forgot to check the tides (dumb) and ran aground twice at the north end of Sarasota bay and had to walk out of the muck twice, I also tore a mirage fin (first one in years). The wind also died on me, and by then I was pretty frustrated so I aborted and came home, In total I did 30 miles for the day and measured how much water I took in when I got home, I measured about a quart (I pumped the water into a milk carton to measure just out of curiosity). I tried the same trip on Sunday, the winds were around 15 mph from the south east (I remembered to check the tides this time (lol). About seven miles in I ran into severe 3ft washing machine chop in Sarasota bay. I have a pretty bad back and it got quite uncomfortable for me, so I had to give it up again (tail between my legs). I ended up only measuring 14 miles for the day on my GPS, and was pretty spent by the time I got back. When I got home I pumped out exactly 1/2 gallon of water out of the hull (measured in a milk carton).
Definately the rougher it is the more water I take in. I'm not sure if all the water comes in the front hatch, but I suspect the majority comes in there. Even with my heavily re-enforced bow (re-enforced with aluminum struts) the water still comes in. I suspect on most TI's in ruff chop the bow flex's a lot, causing the hatch to leak (you can see your bow flexing as you roll thru the waves, (at least I could anyway, thats why I re-enforced my bow).
One remedy I have had some luck with is putting like a shower cap over the opening before strapping the hatch down. Basically I cut a piece of garbage bag slightly larger than the opening the held it down with a piece of 1/4 inch stretchy surgical tubing (like a shower cap). I've used that a few times when out hot dogging down off key west in big water (left the cover and rubber band in Key west, not thinking I would ever need it up north in Sarasota (dah).
You should try the shower cap idea, I suspect it will work well for you in SF bay when it gets rough (very cheap and easy to do). From what I'm seeing you definately need to do something, in my opinion your taking in too much water. Trying the round gaskets, or Keiths Roid gasket would also work but it might end up a lot more messing about and experimenting than the shower cap idea. Personally I wish Hobie would come up with a better design.....

Hope this helps
Bob

Thanks coachstevo and fusioneng,

I think I'll go straight to improving my seal with one of the methods detailed here as it seems like the most low-effort, high-yield maneuver. If my leak disappears, I won't pursue further diagnostics.

scc

I started to look at putting an o-ring seal around the hatch and noticed that the bottom of the hatch cover seal doesn't contact the hull. Is that normal?


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Fully agree with Bob (Fusioneng). Apparently all of us have some kind of issues with water intake on the AI / TI. Especially when sailing upwind in medium to high winds waves always go over the bow. On some boats there is hardly any water intake, on others it can lead to a few gallons. Apparently rotomoulded platic boats are "moving" all the time in heavy / wavy seas and the water intake seems to be unavoidable.

For a rather expensive boat from a global company like Hobie the solution cannot and must not be to make some "do it your self" modifactions (like adding additional seals which a few of us have done).

Hobie should "admit" that there are certain limitation on a hull which is rotomoulded and offer a custom made AI / TI "showercap" or plastic insert for the front hull.

Doesn't cost much and surely gives peace of mind to many sailors who go offshore or want to enjoy their boat in " a bit rough but manageable" conditions.

My two cents

peace
Serbi

A well-known general recently said to the Boy Scouts, something like, “We have to learn to live in the world as it is, not the one we wish it was.”

Hobie is unlikely to change their front hatch opening/cover on the Islands. A shower cap is just one more thing to get lost. Even to design a fail-safe shower cap is not obvious. To make an effective one, Hobie might have to redesign their front hatch, which would likely require redesigning the whole bow area. If you attach your front hatch cover with the tether so it doesn't blow away, how do you fit a "shower cap" over the tether. Personally, I'm not a fan of a "shower cap solution"--they leak.

Kal-P-Dal has come up with a simple solution: “Another method to achieve a 100% watertight front hatch” http://www.hobiecat.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=71&t=50166

My “Roids” seal worked fine on my 2011 AI, but other Islands have different flanges which may not work so well. http://www.hobiecat.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=69&t=46308

I think Thomas’ method is the easiest and most general method to prevent water intrusion into the front hatch. Of course, you could do both seals to be doubly sure. The sealing material (pipe insulation) is available at Home Depot http://www.homedepot.com/p/Armacell-1-2-in-x-6-ft-Rubber-Self-Seal-Pipe-Wrap-Insulation-HST05812/100550644 It works for a couple years and then may have to be replaced. Truly, it takes about the same time to replace these seals as it does to replace the aka brace or rudder shear pins. Not a big deal.

Keith

_________________
2015 AI 2, 2014 Tandem

"Any intelligent fool can make things bigger and more complex ... It takes a touch of genius and a lot of courage to move in the opposite direction." A. Einstein

"Less is more" Anon

Serbi:
Well stated, this has been a known problem on both the AI (since 2007) and the TI (since 2010), and quite probably the most talked about complaint on these boats, and in my opinion a serious safety concern against using the boats for any long distance expeditions (what the boats seem to be best at). Sure people can come up with their own remedies but why should we have to. Plus it's pretty apparent that Hobies manufacturing process is not reliable enough to insure every boat going out the door doesn't leak, as pointed out in this thread several boats are coming directly from the factory leaking as much as 5-10 gallons in a single outing (thats totally un-acceptable). Short term Hobie in my opinion should offer in their accessory catalog a simple shower cap that can be placed over the opening that people can install when needed (simple and inexpensive solution to a persistant problem). Long term Hobie engineering really needs to get off their duffs, and come up with better hatch seal design (just look at what the competition is doing or come up with new design that is easy and reliable to manufacture accurately (current design is not).
The current design is totally dependent on the top lip of the hatch opening remaining flat, we all know depending on how the boat is stored the bow of the boat can raise or lower as much as 6 inches because of the inherent weakness of the entire bow structure, as well as just watching the bow wave up and down as the boat rolls thru the waves. Each time the bow flexes the cap seal opens up and allows water entry. By going to a cork in a bottle type seal (like the twist and stow hatches have) the problem would be totally eliminated. Long term Hobie should be looking to improve the basic design into something more easily manufactured that doesn't depend on a flat cap seal. An example would be to add a short inside rib to the injection molded cover (all steel safe in the mold) that traps the lip in a tongue and groove (cork in a bottle type seal) with a rubber wiping seal on the inner lip. It's not my place to re-design their stuff but in my opinion fixing this issue should be a priority, since it's been the most talked about complaint for many years now. The thing that clinches it for me being a seriously stupid current design is watching the guy sanding the hatch seal with a disk sander freehand in the made in America video, depending on his mood that day you will get a good seal or maybe a not so good seal (I think you guys can do better).

While on the subject I also feel Hobie should offer a simple safety leash to hold the AMA's out in their accessories catalog (similar to the mirage drive and paddle safety leashes they already offer). Just something designed by Hobie that compliments the current nylon sheer pin design that holds the AMA's out. We all know if that sheer pin fails the boat currently capsizes, many of the home made fixes I have seen people do actually make the problem worse (not better) risking serious structural damage to their hulls in an attempt to fix a simple problem.
If anyone doesn't believe me on the sheer pin problem, while out sailing one day just place your hand over the sheer pin knuckle while the boat is moving in even light chop, you will feel the joint banging about. After several normal outings pull the sheer pin out and look at it, you will see the threads are all buggered up (like a ticking time bomb). In my opinion the worst thing you can do is replace the nylon bolt with a stainless bolt (doing so risks serious structural damage to the boat). My opinion is Hobie should offer a simple breakaway clip on leash that compliments their existing design rather than defeating the design specifically for people who use their boats a lot (the only purpose of the leash is to prevent immediate capsize if the sheer pin happens to break while underway), this actually happens a lot with the offshore crowd who use their boats often (the sheer pins wear quickly and eventually fail).
I'm not asking a lot here.
My 2 cents
Bob

Although I haven't noticed my front hatch leaking, and I haven't had a shear pin break on me (knock on wood). I tend to agree with Bob's opinion. If these are known issues and have been voiced numerous times, then Hobie should get off their rears and do something about it.

_________________
2015 Hobie Tandem Island Hibiscus
"Third Normal Form"

• Trampolines
• Hobie cover
• Davis Spar Fly
• Kayakbob's Sprayskirts
• Spine Board Hakas

Still hoping for an answer regarding the hatch cover seal making contact with the hull. My doesn't come close.



In my case, the only barrier to water entry is whatever seal is formed between the underside of the hatch and the hatch opening seal.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Scc:
Obviously the guy in the made in America video who was hand grinding the hatch seals with a disk sander had a hard night the night before grinding the lip seal on your new boat in the factory (humor)
Exactly my point...... Especially Hobie ( a really great company) should be more in tune in my opinion.

I don't really care how Hobie addresses the problem, I still feel the shower cap will work on all existing boats and designs short term. Better than doing nothing at all. As far as the internal strap that holds the hatch, just leave the clip un-attached when using the shower cap. Simple clips on the outside of the hatch to attach the hatch to one of the bungies will have the same effect. The shower cap kit could include two plastic 'C' clips and two screws.
Hobie is not about to retrofit the thousands of boats already out there with a new design.
Bob

I repeat, as a number of us have on this thread,


Keith

_________________
2015 AI 2, 2014 Tandem

"Any intelligent fool can make things bigger and more complex ... It takes a touch of genius and a lot of courage to move in the opposite direction." A. Einstein

"Less is more" Anon

When you think about it, all Hobie would have to do is send everyone a length of pipe insulation and a page of instructions to solve the problem. It wouldn't be the first time they sent out a retro fit.

Keith

_________________
2015 AI 2, 2014 Tandem

"Any intelligent fool can make things bigger and more complex ... It takes a touch of genius and a lot of courage to move in the opposite direction." A. Einstein

"Less is more" Anon