TI aka failures, amas collapsing, etc.

I feel we are left alone to solve what is really Hobie's problem with no real recognition or acceptance by them that this issue is real and potentially life-threatening.

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Fair Skies, Max.

Yes...I would agree. We are left alone by design to make something awesome even better. When I first purchased my truck I was left alone on that purchase as well.

What's the first thing I did? Make it better! Exhaust, chip, bed liner, wheels, tires, amplifier and on and on.

It's a balance of safety vs liability vs performance. Hobie chose the best balance for themselves, and probably 75% of Island owners. Consider that if a happy tourist at Sandals Resort rented a TI with the added the "nylon safety lines" to the craft, and came back under full power to the dock, they would do more damage to the boat and themselves than with just the nylon shear pin.

That same day, they would be back to the resort asking for a refund and lawsuits could ensue. From a business stand point I think it's the perfect balance. It is up to us to upgrade to the point of assuming more risk to the boat, while allowing us to extend and push it's limits.

If Ford had installed a larger amp in their trucks, 1 out of 100 people would probably sue for hearing damage....Wait what?

Not buying that at all, except yes, we can fix something brand new that should not need fixing.

I was involved in building aircraft for sale all my life.

Aeroplanes are like boats, they take the occupant into an element that can be extremely unforgiving of any incapacity or neglect.

Do you think it would be OK to tell my customers that sometimes a wing might fall off in normal flight and that was considered acceptable?

You're equation of, "Safety vs Performance", is astonishing and incomprehensible.
The glaring truth that safety can never be compromised for performance is self-evident.

A brand new model has a fault in some production models that causes an essential component to fall off and capsize the craft.
This has been demonstrated and admitted by Hobie reps to be a real, existing issue and that it is the truth of the matter.

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Fair Skies, Max.

I agree with skymax. Both the amas popping out and amas collapsing issues are serious safety problems and should be fixed by the manufacturer. If this were a car the NHTSA would probably be involved and demand a recall. The fact that both issues have been reliably reported by multiple owners with capsizes occurring as a result would be enough to consider a recall. These boats are often used by people who may not be physically able to recover from a capsize and sooner or later an unnecessary fatality may occur. The likelihood of a capsize is much greater with these issues unresolved. Please understand that most Hobie owners do not read these forums and are probably completely unaware of the danger and know nothing of the fixes that have been successfully designed and applied by some owners which could save lives.

Both problems can be resolved with retrofits which would not be costly. I addressed the popping out issue simply by wrapping stainless steel cable around where the amas separate. The cable is secured by a screw in connection and is easily removable. Cost per boat, about $30. Problem solved for me but what about all the thousands of other AI an TI owners all over the world that don't know about it? They are unnecessarily at risk of a capsize even though a simple and effective fix exists. Only Hobie knows who those owners are and they should at least be notified of the situation.

I address the collapsing issue via the tramps but Hobie can probably easily design a fix that would work on boats without tramps. The use of a plastic shear bolt to save damage to the boat at the risk of instantly collapsing the amas and causing a life threatening capsize is incredibly short sighted. The safety of the crew should obviously always be paramount to the safety of the boat. No design should make the possibly of capsize imminent, yet if that little plastic bolt shears when the boat is operated in moderate winds a capsize is highly possible and has indeed been reported as occurring in multiple instances. The amas are highly critical to the safety of the boat. Nothing short of a catastrophic failure or accident should ever cause them to collapse without warning. That plastic shear bolt is a really bad idea with no safety backup.

No boat is 100% safe but every boat should be designed to be as safe as possible. These two issues seriously compromise the safety of the TI and the AI which otherwise are very safe boats. Hobie needs to address both issues immediately before someone loses their life, maybe a child. Look at what happened with the GM ignition recall issues. GM knew about the issue for years and did nothing to fix it until many people lost their lives. There is no excuse for that to ever happen again.

Stainless steel cable? $30? I just followed the many examples here and used cord, in my case 1000 lb strength Hobie rudder cord, for a total cost of about $5. "Keep out lines" from mast step to mid amas cost about $10

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Tony Stott
2012 Tandem Island "SIC EM" with Hobie spinnaker

I think everyone is blowing all this out of proportion and trying to over complicate something that is very simple to fix for about a dollar in rope and 5 minutes of their time just one time only.
I'm a design engineer/inventor (my day job), when I got my first TI in spring 2010 three different things happened to me the first month I owned my boat. The first was my front AKA popped out and my sister in law who was on the tramp was dumped into the water (I still have major trust issues with the family). The second was one of the AMA's falling off the boat (the 1/4 inch bungys were not strong enough ( it's pretty worrysome hearing the AMA's rattling around and bouncing on the bungys). And the third was the nylon sheer bolt breaking while we were going thru a boat wake in fairly rough seas. I was pretty fed up at that point and didn't want the boat anymore feeling unsafe out in the ocean.
To give Hobie credit a few weeks after getting the boat I got new AKA clips in the mail from Hobie, prior to installing the new clips you could give any of the AKA bars a light tug and they would just pop out, after the new clips, you could no longer pull them out. Keep in mind I no longer had any trust in the design feeling it to be totally unsafe for open ocean (where we mostly go).
I thought about it trying to fix these obvious problems and came up with the simple rope trick which solves all three problems in one fell swoop with just a simple rope. I ran a 1/4 stretchy nylon line with a clip on each end from the metal padeye in the center of the left AMA up around the front aka outer hull brace across the boat (behind the mast) then around the right side outer aka hull brace. I then clipped the other end of the line to the center metal cleat in the center of the right AMA. The same rope and clips are still on the boat 5 1/2 yrs later. The rope never leaves the boat, I just stuff the ends into the mesh pockets during storage. It took all of five minutes of my time to make initially using clips and rope I already had laying around my garage (cost me nothing to make it). That simple nylon rope with a little tension on it totally prevents the AMA's from flopping up an down (which always drove me nuts), and even if the bungys on the AMA are too weak, they will no longer just fall off. The same rope prevents the AKA bars from popping out (both front and back), you can push the buttons in and try to tug the AKA bars out, you can't get them out. The third and most critical function is if you break an AKA sheer bolt (I have sheered many dozens while in the water), the rope prevents the AKA from folding in and causing a for sure capsize.
None of this is new and all was posted on this forum along with all the explanations and reasons over 5yrs ago.
To the best of my knowledge over 50k people have read and visited the Ultimate Island thread, but only one person (Tony) ever implemented it (ie ...the rope trick)until recently. Everything went to pretty deaf ears, everyone will come up with their own solutions anyway, and 99% of the owners out there argue that there is no problem, and the plan to do nothing stating if there was a problem Hobie would have fixed it ( I disagree with that arguement)
Obviously my TI is heavily modded for offshore with massive sails and big twin outboards and I typically push way harder and go 3x to 4x the speeds of what the boat was designed for and what a stock TI can do so my situation is probably different. But it's nice to know in advance where your boats gonna break if you ever do get into a rough situation on purpose or not (ie... Sudden thunderstorms)

All the ingenious fixes that TI and AI owners have developed prove the problems are easily fixable. Hobie now needs to provide the best of these designs to all TI and AI owners because the vast majority of them throughout the world do not read this forum and are probably unaware of the problems or the fix. Hobie did this before when they had a fix for a rudder problem so it can be done again with these issues which are much more serious because safety is involved. In this situation the manufacturer needs to contact the dealers and all owners, you can't simply assume all TI and AI owners will somehow find out on their own. There is never a valid excuse for a manufacturer to ignore a known safety issue where people's lives could be at stake, just ask GM (http://money.cnn.com/2015/05/12/autos/gm-ignition-switch-recall-100-deaths/).

Did you buy that Cord from a Hobie dealer Tony our local has closed down?
Do you recommend stretchy or non-stretch?

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Fair Skies, Max.

Fusion, nobody doubts that the issue can be remedied but PRO10's makes an extremely valid point about many AI owners not knowing about the potential danger.

Due to age the Couple in Queensland needed a rescue boat to right their new AI, my friend who was there asked them if they had read about the issue on the forum and they admitted they did not know the forum existed.

It's quite likely that only forum members and ppl who's boats suddenly roll upside-down know about this and there is a responsibility for the maker to at least issue a formal notification to customers via their Dealers.

As Pro says, a non life-threatening Rudder problem which cost a lot more to solve than this issue was successfully initiated by Hobie in 2011.

This is the bottom line and it says inform all the owners and offer a simple kit fix.

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Fair Skies, Max.

I don't comment on every redundant topic in the forums and often I am not able to read forums thru and thru during peak seasons. I have discussed this one a number of times, so I think that is recognition that we are aware that some people are struggling with akas coming loose. Other than operator error, the rough conditions these boats are being subjected to, a likely cause is damage / distortion of the fittings, sand or debris, corrosion, salt as well as possible tolerance issues related to manufacturing that should be able to be corrected. We are looking at this again, but have yet to have hands on experience with akas that simply come loose on their own. It seems difficult to replicate.

http://www.hobiecat.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=75&t=54536



To be honest, saying that something is life threatening as a way to get it attention... is not realistic. This is not life threatening in itself. The Amas and sail rig can be jettisoned and the main hull is a completely capable boat on it's own.

I'm not at all against a "hardening system" being added for peace of mind, but the aka locks should be effective for most users.

These boats were designed to be simple and quick to rig. The aka locks work well and have been proven over thousands of Islands manufactured to date. To add bolts and other time consuming fastenings was not deemed acceptable and defeated one of the primary goals... ease of use and simplicity. Every attachment type can have issues if done incorrectly, worn or damaged. Stainless pins were used on the original version Island and discarded due to bends and difficulties assembling and disassembling.

Our engineers will be looking again at reasons people are having failures and trying to determine simple checks you can do to see if your system is properly locking.

The simplest check I can think of is to look at the lock buttons and see how far out of the crossbar the are without the akas installed vs when installed. You may find that the lock is not fully engaged and that would show as the buttons being partially depressed in the crossbar. When locked the buttons should be popped out.

_________________
Matt Miller
Former - Director of Parts and Accessory Sales
Warranty and Technical Support
Hobie Cat USA
(Retired 11/7/2022)

I haven't had an aka come loose while underway, but that's not to say I haven't had an aka come loose all on its own. Actually I've had the front starboard, rear starboard and rear port all come loose on their own. Luckily I've noticed it while the TI was still on the trailer and was able to correct the issue before heading out. Who knows what caused them to come loose, but it's not like I'm disassembling and reassembling the boat on a regular basis. In fact I haven't taken the akas off since I picked the boat up from the dealer. Honestly it's not something I've been worried about.

Sent from my SPH-L720T using Tapatalk

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2015 Hobie Tandem Island Hibiscus
"Third Normal Form"

• Trampolines
• Hobie cover
• Davis Spar Fly
• Kayakbob's Sprayskirts
• Spine Board Hakas

Try Craig at Graham Barclay Marine in Forster (02 6554 586six), as he still have some rudder line left after I bought some last week. Use this to provide aka retention lines (and support straps for linking amas to akas as well). Stretchy line is ideal for keep out duty.

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Tony Stott
2012 Tandem Island "SIC EM" with Hobie spinnaker

I have a picture of my TI stiffening set up, but cannot obtain the procedure to add same to our forum. Hobie support provided me the following: viewtopic.php?f=18&t=8574 , but I cannot understand how to do the procedure. I can add the picture to an email if anyone is interested.

Sorry,

Robbin Leigh

I accept this, to say, "Life-threatening", may be the wrong choice of words but there is a proven potential for mishap that we would rather avoid.
I am a Hobie lover not an issue-hater, after all I have owned Five of them with no problems including a 2008 AI which was faultless.
I understand by you're post that Hobie are looking seriously at the issue now and that brings me assurance that it will be identified eventually.
I do think it's important that all AI2015 owner's know about a potential, possible separation and so can take preventive measures in the meantime.

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Fair Skies, Max.

I'm sorry but the accidents reported due to the amas popping out as well as the sudden breakage of the plastic shear bolt are both clearly potentially life threatening and your failure to acknowledge them as such in lieu of the facts is disconcerting. Both have already resulted in people being quickly cast overboard without warning and sudden and unexpected capsizes. There are many people including elderly and children commonly using these boats who might not be able to survive such an incident, especially in cold or rough water. Yes, the main hull is a completely capable boat on its own, but certainly not when it's capsized. To right a capsized TI or AI or to jettison the amas and sail rig while capsized and then right the main hull requires considerable strength, coolheadedness, endurance, technique, and agility that not everyone has, especially during rough conditions and in colder water, both commonly experienced in normal use. Panic, drowning, and hypothermia are unfortunately all too life threatening when any boat capsizes. Surely you must know that. This is no place for rationalization or complacency. If you don't think a sudden, unexpected capsize is potentially life threatening and deserves attention then what does? It's about the worst thing any boat can do to its occupants.

I use my TI on a large lake. When the wind is over 20 knots the lake can quickly and unexpectedly become treacherous with swells reaching several feet. Imagine a parent struggling to right a capsized TI in very rough water while at the same time trying to prevent his small children from floating away with the swells. Or a seventy-five year old man and his wife without the strength to right the boat floundering in very cold waters without a dry suit, awaiting hope of a quick rescue before hypothermia overcomes them. Am I being melodramatic to try to get attention to this issue? Maybe, but these scenarios are completely plausible, even probable. There are many thousands of these boats in use. Hobie's own photos show children in these boats all the time. Many people using these boats are elderly or not in the best physical condition. These boats are used all over the world in all kinds of bodies of water, warm and cold, normally in windy, often rough conditions. There are numerous reports of amas collapsing or coming out, right here in this forum. Add all of this up and almost for certain these kinds of incidents can and do happen. Just in my area alone there have been several fatalities this year due to capsizes of kayaks and other small boats. I myself recently witnessed from shore two young, strong adults capsize in a small sail boat in very windy, rough, but not uncommon conditions. They tried unsuccessfully for a long time to right their boat and required rescue. One almost drowned. It was a terrifying thing to witness. When they were finally brought to shore it was easy to tell that they were in shock. Only experienced, trained and qualified sailors are readily capable of coping with such a serious capsize in rough water. Everyone else is clearly in potential danger.

I was sailing my TI just the other day. Miles from shore the wind suddenly and unexpectedly picked up from a pleasent 5-15 knots to a wicked 20-25 knots. The swells were reaching 4-5 feet and frightening even for me and I have over 30 years experience as a boater. In those conditions it would be hard enough just to hang on to a capsized TI never mind try to upright it. I'm in great shape but if I suddenly capsized in those conditions it could easily become potentially life threatening especially if I panicked. I know a lot of you can relate to this and some of you have actually experienced it. I can't imagine a parent with a child or a physically compromised person having to cope with trying to deal with a capsized TI in those conditions. I'm sure every TI and AI owner would agree that every effort must be taken to avoid a capsize. It's what we fear the most when using this boat because it's the greatest single threat to the safety of the crew. It's one thing if a capsize is caused by extreme weather or water conditions or improper sailing technique, it's totally a different thing if the boat capsizes due to a parts failure or design flaw just when you need it to work properly the most. Any design issue that might cause a sudden, unexpected, and unnecessary capsize is without question a serious safety concern and needs to be addressed. No one should even try to argue against that if they wish to maintain credibility. Again, what could a boat do worse or more dangerous than to suddenly and unnecessarily eject its occupants overboard without warning and then capsize and become totally incapacitated while leaving them stranded in the water?

Remember also that these boats are not marketed solely to professional or experienced sailors, they're marketed as a family friendly, easy to sail boat for anyone to use in almost any body of water including cold waters and ocean shores.

Every potential safety issue with any product should be thoroughly analyzed by the manufacturer and a decision needs to be made at an executive level either to correct the problem or to simply let it go without so much as a warning to existing owners. If a manufacturer decides not to take action with a safety issue then it does so at the possible risk of its own reputation and the expense of everyone who has put their faith in their expertise and wisdom to design a safe product in which they may trust their lives. Several major auto manufacturers chose to ignore some of their seemingly non life threatening safety issues, probably to save money, and a lot of people died as a result. We're not talking a hypothetical situation here anymore, this is a well known fact and it makes headlines worldwide every time it happens. It usually ends up costing them much more in money and reputation than it would have if they had chosen to address the problem before people were injured and killed. No need for any melodrama here, this is real life stuff and it continues to happen due to bad corporate decisions. And it may happen to you. Why are we often so willing to accept excuses when our safety is involved? Would it even surprise you to know that some corporations actually wait until a specific number of people are injured or killed before considering a known problem important enough to take action? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_General_Motors_recall
http://abcnews.go.com/US/takata-expresses-regret-capitol-hill-airbag-recall/story?id=31482673

Manufacturers use these forums to get feedback from their customers. I've read nearly all of this forum and this is by far the most important topic I've yet seen discussed due to the potential for loss of life. So if this doesn't deserve full attention then what does? This issue is not just going to go away on its own either. It keeps popping up again and again here because more and more people are buying the TI and AI and these serious flaws become evident to them and scare them. So far only other owners have come to their aid with a fix. That may be okay when looking for a solution for mounting a fishing pole, but not when it comes to a serious safety flaw. This is something that Hobie should step up to the plate and resolve. Please don't misunderstand me I think Hobie makes excellent products and I love my TI, but I've seen Hobie respond far more favorably and effectively to far less serious issues. So why the inexplicable inaction with something as important as this?

Boating can be a dangerous sport and yes, it can be life threatening especially when there are potential inherent safety problems with the boat. Every boat manufacturer knows that as fact and it is their responsibility to act responsibly when it happens. We can easily forgive a design flaw, it happens all the time. What can't so easily be forgiven is doing absolutely nothing about it especially when safety is involved. I state again that the vast majority of TI and AI owners do not read this forum and at the very least deserve to be informed so they can choose to take action on their own to correct these issues even if Hobie chooses not to. A simple letter to the owners explaining the problems and a suggested fix even if it's at their own expense. That's all I'm suggesting.