Leaking Forward Hatch

Here are a few of my pictures one day on our Feb 1-7, 2015, camping trip.

Preparation for serious diving by my 2011 AI.




Diving 1




Diving 2




Diving 3




Those pictures were all taken as we ran before the wind on a broad reach. I estimated the winds to be about 17-18 mph with higher gusts. We averaged over 5 mph for a period of 4 hours. More pictures of that camping trip and the rest of the trip story can be seen at http://www.hobiecat.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=70&t=7276&start=645

A little side note, I never noticed any weather helm with my 2011 AI.

Keith

_________________
2015 AI 2, 2014 Tandem

"Any intelligent fool can make things bigger and more complex ... It takes a touch of genius and a lot of courage to move in the opposite direction." A. Einstein

"Less is more" Anon

Well I DO see that much water over MY bow, but I don't get a single drop passing the front hatch cover.
Half a cup from rudderlines and some very annoying leakage whenever I open a "Twist & Seal Hatch".
(Was that fixed on the AI 2015?)

@Keith
Very nice pictures again!

I have just the old film clip from last summer (already posted somewhere here on the forum).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4LkK1NsnTVI

Nice dives at 0:30, 1:50 and 2:15.
Note that the waves are not so big (although a little bit bigger than shown on film!), but wind is quite hard and most of the sail is furled in. Speed constantly 10-13 km/h. (And absolutely NO water came inside the hull trough the front hatch!)

br
thomas

Given reports of bow submersion resulting in the gamut of little or no leak to multiple gallons of water leaking, I have to believe that a mechanical problem other than hull flexing is the cause. My theory is that the hatch opening lip is not mated adequately to the hatch cover to form an adequate seal and/or the hatch opening lip is too tall thereby preventing the hatch cover seal from making contact with the hull at the base of the lip. My hatch cover seems well mated to the contour of the hatch opening lip. On the other hand, the hatch cover seal sits about 1/2" above the hull resulting in no seal. The only seal I have is that of the hatch opening seal on the underside of the hatch cover. I reported this issue to my Hobie dealer who forwarded my concern and photos to Hobie's warranty department. Here is the response,

That’s not unusual. The primary seal will be on the kayak side and seal up against the lid. It shouldn’t leak unless submerged, and if they are consistently submerging the bow the majority will shed off the sides. Some people that go in rough water often have added foam strips to help seal it. This is something we’re looking to improve upon, but is rarely an issue for most users.

I think this is a correct conclusion. You can't actually see that but you can use a lipstick (non kiss proof!) and see the marks (or lack of marks) on the underside of the lid. This is obviously a correct conclusion. One seal that works is enough! And frankly, I do NOT belive that the rotomold process will ever be that accurate so Hobie could obtain both seals to work. They do trim this as a standard operational procedure whithout testing each hull & hatch cover individually. If they did, this thread wouldn't be. Correct! Not correct IMHO, primary seal should be the OUTSIDE seal. Same statement as saying "It shouldn't leak unless you use it in the sea..." More or less saying "you have to fix this yourself"

Good luck! And it IS doable!

best regards
thomas

Don't get me wrong. I love my AI and I got a leaking front hatch delivered right from start.
I have fixed the front hatch and now I have no problem with that anymore.
It is doable. Not complicated but you have to be careful if you need to cut and trim the hull.
Maybe a warranty killer.

br
thomas

So, in a nice way they basically told you that you are misusing your boat by taking it out into rough water and that it's not their fault that it fills with water. What is their definition of rough? I don't think I have ever seen an operating range specified for these boats (i.e. 0-25 mph winds with less than 3' chop). What I might find rough conditions for my TI on an inland lake would pale in comparison to someone that sails one in say HI (bear in mind I'm not a seasoned sailor).

_________________
2015 Hobie Tandem Island Hibiscus
"Third Normal Form"

• Trampolines
• Hobie cover
• Davis Spar Fly
• Kayakbob's Sprayskirts
• Spine Board Hakas

That is not at all what our stance is on this. If it is not trimmed correctly, there are ways to correct it. See your dealer for help on that. If our warranty department is balking at helping... that is a problem I would want to hear about.

I will add that adjusting the pressed-on seal strip should also be considered. If unevenly placed on the lip... it could exacerbate the problem. By matching up the seal to the lid or sealing surface, it may be enough to solve the problem.

_________________
Matt Miller
Former - Director of Parts and Accessory Sales
Warranty and Technical Support
Hobie Cat USA
(Retired 11/7/2022)

Now this is interesting!
IF your warranty department is just a BIT reluctant to help...
WOULD (??) next in line (Hobie Europe for me) step up and say WE will take the responsibility (and costs) for this issue?
I think not.
Leaving me fighting with my only friend in this, MY dealer in Sweden.

This was the main reason for me to fix the problem myself.
Very glad though, that this seems to concern you Matt!

best regards
thomas

My question posted on this thread and asked of my dealer (which was forwarded to Hobie and whose response I posted) was whether it was normal for the hatch cover seal to be out of contact with the hull. The response from Hobie was "That's not unusual" and that it "is rarely an issue for most users". But what about those users that ARE affected. Hobie's response lacked any recommendation regarding whether the "not unusual" configuration of my hatch cover seal was normal or acceptable or a potential cause of hatch leak. Further, I was not advised to ask the dealer for help nor did Hobie advise the dealer to inspect the boat. To me, this equates to "you're on your own". Thank you Matt for providing an avenue for further investigation.

Our factory manager read this thread and explained that in the older AI, when we changed the seal type from a side seal on a flange that was 90 degrees to the lid... to the vertical flange, there were some issues making the seal work consistently. This was caused by trimming and extra thick plastic in the area. If the flange was too tall that could prohibit the lid seal from touching the hull. Trimming the flange additionally or changing to a larger bulb seal could make a better seal.

We use a larger seal on the Pro Angler: 71305001 TRIM LOK SEAL (LG TOP-MOLDED)

_________________
Matt Miller
Former - Director of Parts and Accessory Sales
Warranty and Technical Support
Hobie Cat USA
(Retired 11/7/2022)

scc--hull flexing becomes very important when in rough waters while fully loaded, like on a camping trip. The new AI 2 is relatively rigid up front and should have little hull flexing. The TI does seem to have hull flexing as Stringy showed in his video clip--I believe that was a tandem.

We all sail our boats in different conditions. A complaint by some may not be observed by others. If the "noise level" is not loud enough, Hobie may not change their operating procedure. There is a simple solution as designed by Kal-P-Dal.

Keith

_________________
2015 AI 2, 2014 Tandem

"Any intelligent fool can make things bigger and more complex ... It takes a touch of genius and a lot of courage to move in the opposite direction." A. Einstein

"Less is more" Anon

Agreed. I did not mean to suggest that hull flexing is not a cause of leaks. Rather, that other causes - namely poor seal contact independent of hull flexing - could be at play. I think there have been plenty of reports of both leaks and no leaks in rough waters where, presumably, hull flex would be present.

Matt,

Do you have the dimensions of the bulb on this seal or the Trim Lok part number?

Thanks,

scc

TROM LOK DD6125

_________________
Matt Miller
Former - Director of Parts and Accessory Sales
Warranty and Technical Support
Hobie Cat USA
(Retired 11/7/2022)