Joined: Sat Sep 20, 2008 8:19 am Posts: 374 Location: Australia
Crikey, some of you blokes get your jimmies rustled over the slightest things. Adding handles wherever you want them isn't just easy, its inexpensive. And if you ask nicely, I'd be willing to bet that the dealer will throw them in, maybe even offer to install them for you. The earlier handles did cause issues by diverting water onto the deck (and into the seat well), and if heeling on the portside, sending it up your sleeve when steering the boat. Anyone who hasn't experienced it probably haven't gone fast enough to see it occur. It use to happen to me all the time (and I hear it from customers often enough to), so I for one am glad they are gone.
Yeah, I'll add some webbing handles. It will take me less than 10 minutes to install. No biggy.
Joined: Thu Aug 16, 2007 2:25 pm Posts: 2866 Location: Central Coast NSW Australia
Josh, I could suggest that if you are worried about a wet sleeve then YOU aren't going fast enough! That, of course, is nothing compared to the full on, buckets of water in your face, drowning that these boats are capable of.
No-one is arguing it wasn't an issue. What we wanted was a fix and not the cop-out solution that Hobie came up with.
This thread relates to the TI remember. It was rarely an issue on the TI and with the new seats I imagine even less of a problem.
But getting rid of handles that were far better than any we could add was a backward step.
I think I paid an introductory price of around AU$5500 for my 2010 TI and it came with these previously unseen but very comfortable and integrated handles that we soon came to appreciate.
The 2015 TI is now around AU$7500 and for that you still have to have add these inferior handles.
Obviously it doesn't bother you ...but it sure still irks me. Removing something that we found so useful, for what on the TI was a minor annoyance, was not the way to go.
Continuing with this thread though, is probably pointless now. I'm sure that Hobie have gotten a sense that a lot of people aren't happy the handles are gone. Maybe we should just leave it at that?
Joined: Tue Jun 19, 2007 6:14 pm Posts: 3323 Location: South Florida
We don't want to shut anyone off, but, yes, enough has probably been said. Certainly, Hobie has gotten the message. We can all look forward to how they respond.
The handles or some less aggravating version should be added. Frankly, the ones removed never bothered me. I probably was going too slow. I was annoyed at getting water up my sleeve, but I'm not sure that was due only to the handles. If I was in rough seas, I frequently held onto the right handle or the aka--just to steady myself, I guess. I now only use my paddle jacket or anorak with latex cuffs to prevent that problem. I hate water up a sleeve, especially when I kayaked in Alaska. God, it was cold when it ran down my back because I held my arm up shoulder high! After one trip of that aggravation, I bought my anorak.
Keith
_________________ 2015 AI 2, 2014 Tandem
"Any intelligent fool can make things bigger and more complex ... It takes a touch of genius and a lot of courage to move in the opposite direction." A. Einstein
"Less is more" Anon
Last edited by Chekika on Sun Mar 01, 2015 3:32 am, edited 2 times in total.
Joined: Sat Sep 20, 2008 8:19 am Posts: 374 Location: Australia
Quote:
I could suggest that if you are worried about a wet sleeve then YOU aren't going fast enough!
Except I could show you reams of footage suggesting otherwise. The problem was that this would occur even in flat waters, in cirumstances where otherwise explosions of water are not smashing over the deck.
Quote:
Obviously it doesn't bother you ...but it sure still irks me.
This is what I mean by getting jimmies rustled over small things. The solution is so simple that regardless of who does it - Hobie or the user - it's really not a big issue at all. Yet we have a 7 page thread full of nagging and whining, and frankly I've read far too much of it regarding the new AI. I expect to see this level of discontent over non-issues in video game forums, but not here. I guess my expectations are too high
Joined: Wed Oct 06, 2010 2:53 am Posts: 289 Location: Sollentuna, Sweden, Europe
@Yakass
Frankly, I do desagree. I do want to read about all issues, smaller and bigger, that annoys people. I don't think it's nagging and whining at all. There are all kinds of post in this forum but mostly serious meant and lots of questions are asked. But there are also lots of serious, helpful tips and tricks and detailed solutions for most problems here. You contributed yourself!
Scroll down until you come to "AI 2 Physical Characteristics. Part 2" They are shown in that post.
Keith
_________________ 2015 AI 2, 2014 Tandem
"Any intelligent fool can make things bigger and more complex ... It takes a touch of genius and a lot of courage to move in the opposite direction." A. Einstein
Joined: Sun Apr 20, 2008 6:18 am Posts: 3062 Location: Sarasota,Key West FL
First off I have never been on an AI and have no experience on them and no comments. However I do have a TI and have never experienced the water funneling problem people are describing. I think I just figured out why..... We always keep the two headed Hobie paddle strapped to the right side of the boat for safety reasons (and CG requirement, though we have never used it LOL). The paddle head is over the top of the front handle and prevents any water intrusion from that side. Also we have never taken our TI out without the tramps installed, in order to support my tremendous girth (lol) when we mount the tramps I always place the 3/8 rod over the gunwale of the boat, and also have my tramps strengthened with para-cord so I can walk on them with scuba tanks on, so we don't have a water intrusion problem from the sides. We are long time kayakers (before getting our TI) and have used many single and tandem kayaks (mostly Hobie), Our preference is tandem kayaks, since it doesn't go over too well with the wife when I leave her in the dust miles from launch because she is tired (lol). Even though we had a couple revo's we always preferred the Oasis (tandem), and never used the revo's so we eventually sold them. I found it much easier to load/unload and rig a single boat over two complete boats. For years we loaded/unloaded the Oasis to/from our cartop 2-3 times a week minimum every week (year round). I have to admit, without any handles on that old Oasis, this was a dangerous endeavor (always by myself), and I did get injured a few times when it got away from me. When we traded in our Oasis for the TI in spring 2010, even though the TI is slightly heavier and longer, I found the TI to be much easier and safer to load on the roof (always by myself) vs the Oasis. You only lift half the weight of the boat at a time (around 50 lbs vs around 45 lbs with the Oasis), and actually the extra couple feet in length actually makes loading on the roof easier. With the addition of the safety handles, this made loading the boat on the roof a much safer endeavor (finally had something to grab onto). All of Hobies Mirage kayaks have pretty much the same safety handles (since around 2008-2009). By removing the handles on the TI unfortunately this leaves Hobie badly exposed to injury lawsuits (they will figure this out for themselves very quickly). The standard and precedence was established by their previous models, and across their Mirage entire kayak line (pretty much every mirage kayak they make has the safety handles). Trust me they can place all the liability waivers they want into their documentation, but they won't hold ground (the standard has already been set via previous models, and across the rest of their line). As soon as Hobies lawyers figure all this out the safety handles will be back on there in a heartbeat. In the meantime I strongly advise anyone with a 2015 or newer TI to not attempt to cartop their boat (you will get hurt), BTW you also have a free ticket to return the boat and get your money back (there is no claims court judge that would deny the claim (US only)). I love my Hobie's, and have no intentions here, just stating the obvious. My two cents
Joined: Tue Jun 19, 2007 6:14 pm Posts: 3323 Location: South Florida
Interesting commentary, Bob. I think you are generally spot on.
Keith
_________________ 2015 AI 2, 2014 Tandem
"Any intelligent fool can make things bigger and more complex ... It takes a touch of genius and a lot of courage to move in the opposite direction." A. Einstein
Joined: Sat Sep 20, 2008 8:19 am Posts: 374 Location: Australia
Quote:
Frankly, I do desagree. I do want to read about all issues, smaller and bigger, that annoys people. I don't think it's nagging and whining at all. There are all kinds of post in this forum but mostly serious meant and lots of questions are asked. But there are also lots of serious, helpful tips and tricks and detailed solutions for most problems here. You contributed yourself!
best regards thomas
Well, we must agree to disagree then I suppose the fact that I work in a Hobie dealership (and have done for over half a decade), as well as Hobie AU, and almost a decade experience using Hobies, probably means that it is very easy for me to see how to overcome any small problems like these and hardly think they are worth the attention they are getting. And this isn't the only topic regarding the new AI that has been beaten like a dead horse either, so I suppose I'm really reacting the the totality of it.
Quote:
In the meantime I strongly advise anyone with a 2015 or newer TI to not attempt to cartop their boat (you will get hurt)
This is sensationalizing the issue in a massive way. I'm not sure how you go about car-topping a TI, but when I do it I don't use side handles at all. I can do it solo, and I'm a slim-hipped nancy boy with damaged shoulders. Here's a video demonstrating a bunch of ways to car-top kayaks. You'll see me car-top an AI hull several times, no side handles required. I do the TI in exactly the same way.
As for the water-funneling issue not occurring on a TI, well I suspect that happens a lot less (or not at all) due to the extra freeboard and clearance from the water, not to mention added buoyancy of the amas, resulting in a little less heeling. Then again, I'm sure others have reported seeing it happen on a TI to. I have more time on the water in an AI, and it is problematic on that boat because it funnels the water straight into the seat well. Not sure about TI. (Not the foam cut-outs I have shoved into the handle cavity, which I put there to eliminate the water funneling issue)
All that said, I wouldn't mind seeing a return to the molded-in handles as used on the earlier Adventure hull. They were great... not sure why they were removed.
Joined: Sat Nov 05, 2011 1:58 am Posts: 2893 Location: Forster, NSW, Australia
FWIW Josh, I had been mystified as to why my shorts were getting wet at the sides, even on low wind outings, until I realised that my TI handle scoops were quietly squirting water at me during the trip. As I trail my TI, I m staying out of the crossfire LOL
_________________ Tony Stott 2012 Tandem Island "SIC EM" with Hobie spinnaker
Joined: Tue Jun 19, 2007 6:14 pm Posts: 3323 Location: South Florida
This conversation has reminded me of a little brainstorming session we had a few years ago: what to do about rain on windshields?
One suggestion, "remove the windshield."
Keith
_________________ 2015 AI 2, 2014 Tandem
"Any intelligent fool can make things bigger and more complex ... It takes a touch of genius and a lot of courage to move in the opposite direction." A. Einstein
Joined: Sun Apr 20, 2008 6:18 am Posts: 3062 Location: Sarasota,Key West FL
Guys don't shoot the messenger here, I'm a huge hobie fan and gave into the handle argument a while back. However I do have eyes, and insight and was only trying to warn of a possible legal outcome that I'm sure nobody wants, I can guarantee If I thought it thru, someone else with possibly less earnest intentions has also thought this thru. Bob
Joined: Thu Aug 16, 2007 2:25 pm Posts: 2866 Location: Central Coast NSW Australia
Yakass wrote:
Quote:
I could suggest that if you are worried about a wet sleeve then YOU aren't going fast enough!
Except I could show you reams of footage suggesting otherwise. The problem was that this would occur even in flat waters, in cirumstances where otherwise explosions of water are not smashing over the deck.
Quote:
Obviously it doesn't bother you ...but it sure still irks me.
This is what I mean by getting jimmies rustled over small things. The solution is so simple that regardless of who does it - Hobie or the user - it's really not a big issue at all. Yet we have a 7 page thread full of nagging and whining, and frankly I've read far too much of it regarding the new AI. I expect to see this level of discontent over non-issues in video game forums, but not here. I guess my expectations are too high
Congratulations! The Award for the most nagging and whining post in this thread goes to Yakass for the above effort!
I was going to ask you to provide that footage that relates to the TI and then you posted this:
Yakass wrote:
As for the water-funneling issue not occurring on a TI, well I suspect that happens a lot less (or not at all) due to the extra freeboard and clearance from the water, not to mention added buoyancy of the amas, resulting in a little less heeling. Then again, I'm sure others have reported seeing it happen on a TI to. I have more time on the water in an AI, and it is problematic on that boat because it funnels the water straight into the seat well. Not sure about TI. (Not the foam cut-outs I have shoved into the handle cavity, which I put there to eliminate the water funneling issue)
All that said, I wouldn't mind seeing a return to the molded-in handles as used on the earlier Adventure hull. They were great... not sure why they were removed.
You do realise that the title of this topic is 'Campaign to keep the TI handles ...add your name here' ? It has nothing to do with the AI and its problems, so why quote all about the gushing water which does not occur on the TI? The occasional splash was a minor irritation and not enough of a reason to remove the handles. And as far as the comparison between the old molded in handles and the integrated external handles there was no comparison. Give me the new handles anyday ...even with the water funneling problem. BTW- I bet I'm not the only one irked that holes have to be drilled in a brand new kayak to fit handles that should have been original in the first place.
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