Joined: Mon Oct 13, 2014 5:45 am Posts: 36 Location: Japan
Fusioneng: I had checked out your ultimate TI information, but misunderstood some recent comments, thinking that now you were using a one line halyard / back-stay when you used your jib. Your last note clarifies that is not the case. Hobie is using a one line system, but they are running a spinnaker.
Based on an almost windless trial, yesterday, of the back-leaning side support lines, I am guessing it may become the system I most often use. Time will tell. I am expecting to be able to do a bit more experimenting this weekend, including 1. running only an aft-stay from the mast (not one line running through the mast top to the jib) as well as 2. checking how the two aft-leaning side support lines might handle greater forward pressure. I should be able to tie a line from a tree to the mast top to generate 'wind' pressure, measuring the 'wind' and effectiveness of the two systems with a suitcase scale. I think the one line aft-stay will win, but I'm curious to see the results.
Speaking of that pin at the base of the mast, I noticed it yesterday for the first time. I noticed too that it seemed to be surrounded on four sides (maybe equally) by some kind of material, plastic??, to keep the base of the mast on the pin. Might that mean that base support without stays is equal in all directions? Could it be that since a spinnaker is larger it has potential to place greater force on the mast in the forward direction, making an aft-stay more important?
...mark...
_________________ ...mark...
Enjoying a 2012 TI w/ hakas, a stainless steel mast topper & furling jib
Joined: Sun Apr 20, 2008 6:18 am Posts: 3062 Location: Sarasota,Key West FL
Mark: Yes that is correct, the most stress is in the forward direction. The truss brackets pretty much handle the sided to side force on the base of the mast just fine. If you pull the mast holder and look at the bottom of the hull, there is a rectangular pyramid shape standing up from the bottom of the hull (with a brass insert inside). The little stud holds the mast holder down onto the pyramid. This means there is very little side force on the little stud (it's mostly tensile force). However the bottom of the hull is not rigid, so with enough forward force applied, the mast cup can climb up the 45 degree pyramid wall (if they had used 60 degrees it would have not been a problem). This is because the force is multiplied 17 to 1 because of leverage (the base is 1 ft below the pivot point, but the force is applied 17 ft up in the air (with the spin). On the stock TI with just the main, it's not likely you are going to shear that stud, the only time it becomes a problem is when you start trying to add huge spinnaker sails. Hobies spinnaker design (with the rear stay) protects the mast base from that stress (clever design). The rear stay is probably not neccessary with a small jib, however, when on downwind the mast tends to bend and lean forward, which makes the jib into a potatoe chip (curved and relaxed). The rear stay helps with that, and also prevents the mast topper from rotating. This is kind of why I usually use masts on my foresails. The other problem that creeps it's ugly head is the main mast on the TI is mounted really far forward on the boat. When adding big spins and big jibs when sailing downwind (like in a batwing setup, (ie one sail to each side)) the problem that comes up is the downward force from the sails dives the bow underwater. This is why a bowsprit is kind of needed in order to angle the foresails enough so they create lift to the bow, (when my boat is screaming along the angled foresails lift the bow 6-10 inches out of the water). This also prevents the very serious pitchpole problem, I've pitchpoled my TI several times). Hobie has a traveler on the bow that can be relaxed to allow the spin base to fly more forward of the boat (to prevent diving, and pitchpoling, again clever design). Angling the foresails was my most significant discovery, and key to most of my success. Don't misunderstand here, I'm only trying to describe the stresses involved, and what you have to deal with and plan around when designing any additional sail systems to the TI based on my own experience. Which sails you add and how many is personal preference, but understanding the forces involved is key.
Hope this helps FE Edit: If you don't believe me about the leverage forces, just grap an 18 ft flag pole or some thing strong, grab a couple bricks, place the pole one foot from one end next to your car and lift your car up, you can easily lift your car up with two fingers pushing down on the other end of the pole, that's the applied leverage. If your adding massive sailsets (like I did ,, 260 sq ft) on my TI and are concerned about snapping the mast off (they always snap just above the furler), on my first TI (back in spring 2010), what I did was just went to the pool supply store and picked up one of those blue 6 ft pool cleaning poles (I had an extra one just laying around from our pool, I think they cost around $15-20 bucks). The mast is split in the middle, I just split the mast dropped the pole into the hole, put the mast back together (taping the two halves together to prevent spinning with electrical tape (never drill any holes in the mast, or allow it to get scratched), and put it back together and forget about it. Ya kind of need to realize flying that much sail generates tremendous horsepower (in excess of 50 hp), and the stresses on the mast assembly and boat itself are tremendous. I really don't recommend adding that much sail, if you want to go fast go get yourself an H16 or F18. My opinion is for a little extra downwind capability, the Hobie spinnaker kit is easy, safe, fun, and easy to install and use. It's designed around the TI's mechanical limitations, so you don't need to be an expert at designing this kind of crap to enjoy it.
If you really want a jib just pick up a Hobie kayak sail kit, add a pvc rotofurler, or retrofit the Hobie furler kit. Leave the mast in it, or if you want to get fancy, slip the hobie mast into a a Home depot painter extension pole (the 1" od section, just throw the rest away, the 1" pole should still fit into the kayak sail mast sleeve). If your a hobie fanatic (like me), you already have 3 or 4 of those Hobie kayak sail kits just laying around the garage, might as well use em. I drilled out the innards of the Hobie sailkit mast, and just ran the line up the center of the mast up to the halyard (with a clip at the top). I recommend leaving the Hobie spinnaker kit alone, just install it as instructed (don't try to modify it to run both (this would be a super PITA). On the Hobie mast topper drill a 3/16 cross hole 3-4 inches (or halfway) thru the side of the mast topper, then add one of those U shaped straps (same one used on the back of the spinnaker kit). Put a small pulley on. Now run your halyard line thru the pulley (with a clip on one end), run the halyard line thru some 3/8 dia PVC tubing (you will need about 10-15 ft of tubing). Run the halyard line down to a new halyard block near the left end of the AKA brace assembly, outboard as far as possible (just buy the same kind of Harkin cleat that Hobie already uses (there are I think 5 or 6 pre-threaded points on the cross bar, just pick one that's not being used) (all my mounting points are used). On my 3/8 PVC tube I just drilled a small hole near the top and tied the tube with spectra string to the mast topper so it doesn't drop down (gravity). The halyard line I used was just that 700 lbs test parachord (cheap), it needs to be like 40-50 ft long. To raise the jib you just clip the halyard line to the top of the jib, Haul the jib up to the top, pull it tight and cleat the line, (hint if you wrap the halyard line around the AKA brace from the back, then around to the front (from underneath), the harkin cleat still works just fine doing it that way. I take the excess rope and stuff it into the left mesh pocket. I don't recommend using the Spinnaker traveler, that comes with the Hobie spinnaker kit for the bottom of the jib (it's best to leave that in tact for the spinnaker (that traveler is pretty important to prevent pitchpoling when using the spinnaker)). What I do is I just clip the bottom of the jib to the front cleat on the boat and just leave it there, when I'm done sailing, I just lay the jib down across the hull (I have never removed the jib from my boat, it just lays there when not being used (down the left side of the boat). I just leave all the control line hooked up all the time. Whenever I launch I just hoist the jib up (furled), if I need it, I just unfurl and furl as needed. The only difference between my setup and Hobies is my spinnaker is on a furler mast , theirs goes in a spinnaker chute. Nobody will ever run the jib and the spinnaker at the same time, keep them as separate systems, that can be used independently of each other (either or). With mine it takes 30 seconds to furl of unfurl the jib, and you just open it when you need it (you can also partial furl (kind of an important feature to have). When I switch to down wind, I furl up the jib, unfurl the spinnaker, either to the left or to the right. If I jibe to the the other tack, I furl the spin, do my jibe, then unfurl on the other side, takes about 30 seconds to furl/unfurl the spin).
I don't think the jib will interfere with Hobies spinnaker system, but then again I haven't got one, so I am just guessing based on what I've been using for 5-6 yrs now, and trying to marry it with the new Hobie spinnaker kit. If they sent me one, I would work out all the details, but their not about to do that ( lol ). I don't have any money, (thats why I build all my own crap lol), so I won't be buying one anytime soon (I'll start saving now, and may be able to afford one in about a year).
If you already have the Hobie Spinnaker kit, and want to add a jib doin somethin like what I described above will make your life much easier (why try to re-invent the wheel lol).
If you ever wondered how long it takes me to setup my boat, here is a video of me setting up, it takes me 15 minutes to launch, and about the same to take down. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Az2_doAgzCM
When I have my spinnaker along (which I only use at our Key West house when we are down there (nice trade winds)), it takes an extra 2-3 minutes to set that up, hauling it up a second separate halyard system (similar to Hobies spinnaker design, but my spin is 130 sq ft (kind large G2 type, I think Hobies code zero is way better than mine).
Here is an old pic of my old Hobie kayak sail, If you have an adventure, you don't need all the extra crap sewn in, actually, even on a TI, you don't really need the extra sail area sewn in (30+ sq ft), just the stock 22 sq ft kayak sail actually works well even on a TI (sorry I don't have any pics of just the Hobie kayak sail, but I did use just that for a couple years, and it worked great), helped on upwind. Sorry I don't have any more pics, all this stuff happened a long time ago, and I suck at keeping old stuff. 90% of what you see in the pics, I'm still using pretty much every weekend, all of it looks like crap now, but hey it all still works. I happen to like the PVC furlers, they only cost about a two bucks to make, and it takes about 15 minutes to make em.
This is the only pic I have of that same Hobie kayak sail (un-modified) (circa 2008) that I ended up using on my TI in 2010.
Last edited by fusioneng on Sat Mar 12, 2016 10:31 am, edited 8 times in total.
Joined: Mon Oct 13, 2014 5:45 am Posts: 36 Location: Japan
An update to the stainless steel ‘bombshell’: There was a welding flaw which turned the ‘bombshell’ into a bombshell experience when it came tumbling down from the top of the mast, falling just behind my right shoulder leaving a ‘I have fallen here’ mark in the kayak. The weld holding the shaft that fit into the bearings separated from the dish that supported it. There was almost no wind. I had been testing and getting accustom to the furling and unfurling and associated line management of the mainsail and the jib.
The broken portion is being remade, lathed into one piece, combining the shaft and the platform. The platform portion of the shaft + platform will be welded on to the original platform. Hopefully that will eliminate further bombshell experiences, at least from the top of the mast.
Here is a not so good video showing how the system works. The bombshell experience happened about 5 minutes after this video.
Anticipated changes: I have four lines from the jib clew, two to pulleys on the front handles and two to eye hooks on the ama. I think I will move the lines from the eye hooks to pulleys on the ends of the akas. That should give a little more efficiency when using the jib to increase sail size when on a run. It will also continue to allow me to better control the position of the clew of the jib.
I will be adding cam cleats to support bar for the front akas when I get my screws from the US. They are on the way. One will be for furling the jib and adjusting the length of the foot of the jib. The other will be used to adjust the tension on the luff line.
I used side-stays with a little pull to the stern. Again, they were not needed that day for sure, but I was mainly checking to see if I felt they would be in the way when sailing. They didn’t seem to bother anything, at least in near windless conditions.
I used bungee cords to keep the side-stays slightly tight but built in a maximum point at which the stays should not allow the mast any more forward or sideways movement.
I may be wasting some time but enjoying the learning process.
The few minutes of light wind that I had, it felt like the jib was doing its job.
...mark...
_________________ ...mark...
Enjoying a 2012 TI w/ hakas, a stainless steel mast topper & furling jib
Joined: Mon Oct 13, 2014 5:45 am Posts: 36 Location: Japan
The problem with the broken stem into the bearings is fixed, replaced by a piece that is one piece of metal, lathed to the correct size to fit into the bearings and the base, sized to be welded firmly on to the support piece. It is NOT going to go fall off again.
After one use in fairly light winds with just a few stronger gusts, the side support pieces on the mast topper that I had attached to the amas, to reduce the side sway of the mast, bent. The front and back pieces of the mast topper were supported from the bottom, but I figured the side pieces wouldn't get enough pressure to bend. Wrong! It is 3x15mm stainless steal. The bend does't hurt anything, if anything allows the bar to point in the direction of the rope making further bending more difficult. I decided to leave it. I may also give it a little more rope when attaching it and expect the carbon mast to do a little more of the work.
With the addition of one furling line and two main and two side control lines, there are more ropes. I need some more time to get used to it, or figure out a better way to control the lines. Trying to video with one hand didn't help the process.
The following video, well not great, shows the basics of what I have done and includes text to explain some points. Suggestions for improving things are very welcome. Enjoy:
I had a Garmin 810 on the whole time, the data from that is in the link below.
Joined: Mon Oct 13, 2014 5:45 am Posts: 36 Location: Japan
This is an improved video showing what I decided to implement after learning from many 'teachers'. A special thank you who patiently responded to questions, ponderings...
And, thanks to my honey who patiently shot the video.
Enjoy!
...mark...
_________________ ...mark...
Enjoying a 2012 TI w/ hakas, a stainless steel mast topper & furling jib
Joined: Sun Apr 20, 2008 6:18 am Posts: 3062 Location: Sarasota,Key West FL
Mark: Really nice setup, one of the nicest I have seen.
Having to release a little tension off the jib halyard when furling the main in and out is pretty normal (I do that also on both my jib and my spinnaker (I have two halyard lines (one for ea). I also discovered that it's always best when furling or unfurling either sail it's best to point directly into the wind (most sailers do this on most other sailboats). Actually it is so fast and easy to furl/unfurl the jib, I typically leave that furled until I have the main unfurled to where I plan to use it, then unfurl my jib. When putting the sails away I always furl the jib up completely first and unload a little tension off the halyard first, I can then as I'm approaching the beach furl the main quickly to de-power as I come up on the beach, doing it any other way you end up not having enough time to do everything (what I call cleaning up (ie... Remove the mirage, raise the centerboard, release the rudder, and in my case tilt my motors up), and you end up coming into shore way too hot (lol). Actually we have a lot of big sail boats in the harbor where I usually launch, and have more than once came into the harbor way too hot (couldn't get all my sails down quick enough and clean up and ended up dodging sailboats thru the harbor). So now I always stop just outside the harbor (about a quarter mile out), turn into the wind, put all the sails down then just creep in with pedal power and a little bit of the main showing. If you watch most of the big rigs, that's what they do.
I have ran big jibs/genoa's like yours, Of course you will discover this on your own, but you will find sitting in the back the bow comes too far out of the water, and with the jib the boat will get blown around too much (steering will be too difficult in higher winds), but you'll find out all that yourself (in other words don't get too comfortable in that back seat (lol), (the TI has a tiny tiny rudder system). Good luck FE
Joined: Mon Oct 13, 2014 5:45 am Posts: 36 Location: Japan
FE: Thank you for your comments.
Mast rotation: I have been loosening the control line on the sail or pointing the boat into the wind before furling the mast so with just the mainsail, I had no problem. And I had suspected the tension on tmast from the back and forward stay when I was experimenting with using the hobie spinnaker system of a one stay line, but was also dealing with a less than perfect bearing system on my mast topper., so wasn’t sure. Thursday, though, it was abundantly clear.
Rudder with big sail: I am curious about the physics behind more difficult sailing from the back with a jib. In stiffer winds I am almost always on the haka, just behind the front seat, but your note makes me want to experiment to see the effect of sliding from the back to the the front of the haka. In light winds, riding in the front seat, I had no problem. It will be a couple of weeks before I can get out again to enjoy the winds.
...mark...
_________________ ...mark...
Enjoying a 2012 TI w/ hakas, a stainless steel mast topper & furling jib
Joined: Mon Nov 10, 2014 6:20 pm Posts: 146 Location: Pula - Sardinia
Thank u Mark this video for me is particularly interesting because I thought that if i really want a second fore sail it will not be a reacher/spi but a jib/genoa, and also I wouldnt be so crazy to install two foresails as somebody did. I am looking fore a rigging that is the most simple. I have a question about yours. when u "set" (put in tension) the jib after a tack do you feel the need to "adjust" the tension often or, in general, you will not touch it until the next tack?
if this is the case what would u think about putting a cleat on the front bar instead of taking the line next the seat? i know that in this case you should lean in front to the bar everytime u have to adjust the job line, but I dont like much to have all those lines next to the seat. I think that i would prefer to have a more "clean" cockpit. what do you think about it?
Joined: Sun Apr 20, 2008 6:18 am Posts: 3062 Location: Sarasota,Key West FL
If I had to choose between a jib or a spinnaker (if I could only have one), I would select the jib everytime. The jib helps on both upwind and downwind (batwing), whereas a spin is downwind only. When I just had a spin I got myself in trouble a few times, went out to sea but couldn't get back in. My opinion is your upwind capabilities kind of need to match your downwind capabilities. But that's all just my opinion.
Joined: Sat Jan 14, 2012 8:24 pm Posts: 780 Location: Houston, TX
I agree completely with FE about chosing a jib first. The question is can the mast handle a Genoa without stays. I don't know anyone that has one and has time tested it. It certianly would test the mast and the damage coruld resilt in expensive repairs if even possible.
_________________ Greg
2016 AI - Spinn & Jib
“Out of sight of land the sailor feels safe. It is the beach that worries him.” – Charles G. Davis
Joined: Mon Nov 10, 2014 6:20 pm Posts: 146 Location: Pula - Sardinia
I am glad that there is a general agreement on the fact that a jib is more useful than a spi so I also wonder why Hobie decided to produce a spi instead of a jib ... maybe marketing because the Triak has a spi ...
for what concerns the need of lines protecting the mast from damage I think that we should answer the following question: will we use the second sail only in light winds or also with average/strong wind? This answer, in my opinion, influences the decision about the lines. In fact though it's clear that the second sail is a good help with light wind, maybe most of us will not want/need to increase their speed when wind is over 10/12 knots and they will for sure furl the jib before. I am one of them. With light winds the extra power can damage the mast? maybe no, what do you think. With stronter winds what kind of protecion is the best for a jib? maybe a back halyard become necessary.
apart from the halyard what i should really understand with your help is which is the simplest rigging. i saw several solutions. in genral i see too many lines for my taste. i understand that each line has a scope. but my attitude is to keep the rigging to an essential state. doeant mind if i have to lean when tacking. if the cost to have a self-tacking system is filling the bow an cockpit of hundred lines i prefer some discomfort. which is for u the simplest but effective jib rigging?
Joined: Sat Jan 14, 2012 8:24 pm Posts: 780 Location: Houston, TX
I suspect that a genoa would not damage the mast or its support structures as long as winds are less than 11mph. Just a guess based on what I witness while sailing with a jib.
With a self furling rig you will have 3-4 lines going back to the cockpit. The furling line, the halyard and the sheet(s). You can get away with one sheet if you want to.
With a rig like mine (no forestay) and using a self tacking system, you will have 2 lines, the tack line and the self tacking tension line. The halyard is there but you never sense it because is is just a continuous loop attached to the mast at the head and base. Nothing about the halyard is situated in the cockpit.
Pros and cons: A self furling jib is slightly faster to to furl than to take down and stuff the jib behind a bungee lIke my rigging can do. But if I instead choose to furl the jib into the main, my rigging is faster than if someone were trying to furl a self furling jib and the main both. This advantage useful when fishing and trying to bring in a big fish.
The self furling jib gives the boat a more traditional look when furled which I like. On the other hand, my rigging has the advantage that there is no wind resistance when the jib is down and stuffed behind the bungee vs a rolled up jib still hanging from the bow.
With my rig the jib head is attached to the mast vs a mast topper. That means that the only way to use a backstay is to use a fixed backstay. With a self furling jib you are attached to mast topper which gives you the advantage of the added option of circular halyard/backstay system like Hobie uses. On the other hand, my rigging eliminates the need for a mast topper.
A self furling jib, depending on the setup, likely gives you a more rigid luff which probably has its advantages. In my case, you probably need to purchase a good quality, likely more expensive and professionally made jib to maintain a straight luff when there is no jib mast.
A self furling jib will require a bowsprit to use a spinnaker. A system like mine does not.
I look at it like this, if you plan to fish offshore then I like my sytem. If it's all about sailing and your not going to use a spinnaker or a bowsprit then I prefer the self furling jib rigg.
It can be a hard decision to decide which way to go. Both have advantages.
_________________ Greg
2016 AI - Spinn & Jib
“Out of sight of land the sailor feels safe. It is the beach that worries him.” – Charles G. Davis
Joined: Mon Oct 13, 2014 5:45 am Posts: 36 Location: Japan
Sardinian Islander wrote:
... I have a question about yours. when u "set" (put in tension) the jib after a tack do you feel the need to "adjust" the tension often or, in general, you will not touch it until the next tack?
I have sailed this setup only once and for a limited time, but will answer the best I can. I ran the jib luff tight enough so that I didn't have to adjust it each time I wanted to furl the jib. For most efficient sailing I think you want the jib to be loose to catch more wind in a light wind and tighter in a stronger wind. I don't have anyone to race with so would probably adjust it when more when sailing by my self (as a learning opportunity) and less when sailing with my honey or a friend or two.
Sardinian Islander wrote:
if this is the case what would u think about putting a cleat on the front bar instead of taking the line next the seat? i know that in this case you should lean in front to the bar everytime u have to adjust the job line, but I dont like much to have all those lines next to the seat. I think that i would prefer to have a more "clean" cockpit. what do you think about it?
The halyard is running through a cleat on the front bar. The control line for the jib runs to the handle beside the seat. The reason I don't run it to the front bar is that the jib foot reaches past the aka, so I wouldn't be able to pull it tight. Depending on where I sit, I can run it to the haka or the back seat as well. I don't have any on water experience with this set up yet, so I can't speak from actual use, but in 'driveway sailing' it seemed to work quite well and allowed me to easily adjust the tension on the sail. I am a little concerned that my cheap jib control contraption may not hold up well to windy conditions. Also, I noted that I don't HAVE TO furl the jib in order to tack. There was generally enough wind to allow the jib clew to slice past the halyard line running about 6 inches in front of the mast. By giving the control line on the leeward side a little pull, the jib obediently switched sides.
The main reason I chose a furling jib was that it allowed for 1. more control in various wind conditions by furling when needed. 2. I was reading about sailing with a jib/genoa and interested in various sail shapes that allow for sailing more efficiently. I found it quite fascinating and wanted to learn by doing this, not because I race, but out of a desire to learn how to better control or utilize the wind to my advantage.
I like Greg's setup for 1. simplicity, 2. cost, 3. ease of storing the jib with the mainsail. Also, I may be switching to a two or three loop jib halyard system like Greg's for simplicity. But, initially, I had no idea where I was going to want the tension set, so at least until I know more, I felt I wanted more flexibility controlling the tension. By using a much lighter sail (mine is too heavy - my mistake) less tension would likely have less effect making the jib more difficult to furl.
My personal experience is that having a jib halyard run to the back, like for use with the Hobie spinnaker, is not necessary and makes control of the jib, much more difficult to use. My mast topper was designed to be able to do just that. I applied the Hobie and FE spinnakar system, assuming it would be good for me too, even without the spinnaker. It was a mistake, resulting from my misunderstanding FE's notes. I have tried it, off the boat and on and found that for my purposes, it has no advantages, only disadvantages. But if I ever add a spinnaker, my mast-topper will allow me to do it.
_________________ ...mark...
Enjoying a 2012 TI w/ hakas, a stainless steel mast topper & furling jib
Last edited by HokMark on Sun Apr 24, 2016 6:00 am, edited 1 time in total.
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