what if....?

What if?
NOT a real vessel. Just theories that could/should work with Community Input.

1) Take two full AI rigs, leave the akas and amas in the garage.
2) Use the same hardware that comprise the aka mounts and connect the 2 AI hulls together in a Cat config (except straight across from hull to hull and beefed up).

If the distance is the same between the two hulls , a single tramp can be used to 'span the hole in the middle'. If not, add as much metal distance as needed for max stability and possibly double the distance with 2 tramps (which would also keep the 2 sails apart for as much as possible minimum cross turbulence from the sails)

3) Disconnect the standard steering mechanism and rig up a steering bar simular to what the Hobie cats use.

4) At this point, I haven't figured out a way (yet) for 1 person to control both sails...No matter, the boat is designed for 2 AI skippers to work together to make this Adventure Cat Rock.

The pros: You should now have a lighter double hulled vessel and still have twice the amount of sail area spread across 1 interconnected cat.

Any interests in this idea, fellow AI fanaticos?

(Hmmm now what if we were to take two TI hulls, and.....)

Your ideas would be great to actually make this into a working prototype.
Trinomite

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Always looking for ways to make good things 'Gooder'

Yes I know, the cats hulls have a far thinner beam and a lot more freeboard than an Adventure kayak hull.

Another theory that could counter problem this is a possible hybrid of the two types of vessels:

Port hull (left hull will have an aka and ama attached for counterbalance on the Port side.
Starboard hull (right hull) will have an aka and ama on the starboard side)
This makes this a catamaran with an ama on the far side of each hull and still be connected together in the middle with a very solid connection.
(However to get this wider config to work, the distance will have to be kept to a 1 tramp distance between the hulls or it would almost be impossible to turn this boat into the wind on a tack)
Fred

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Always looking for ways to make good things 'Gooder'

Here's another idea that would be impossible with a single masted craft...
With 2 masts you now have the ability to rig up a recut Spinnaker rigged between the tops of the 2 masts (sort of like an ultralight square sail) for downwind delights

Oh Yah!

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Always looking for ways to make good things 'Gooder'

Here's another alternative not just for the AI but any kayak that needs a downwind push with minimal rigging and a wind self spilling system based on bending carbon fiber poles on a simple Scotty Mount in a 'V' shaped config:

http://www.spiritsails.com/

I've used and own both sizes of these sails and they are goof proof and highly effective.

Either size could also be used on the forward (or rear) Cat crossbar on the Adventure Cat (to be) without complex rigging (or held aloft on dual rotating masts).

Fred

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Always looking for ways to make good things 'Gooder'

Here are a few other advantages for this dual hull setup:

1) you now have dual daggerboards available which will increase your upwind ability and performance
2) A 2 person crewed craft will always be safer than sailing solo (as you will have human backup in case of emergencies.
3) Having the ability to go 'wing to wing' will greatly increase your downwind efficiency.
4) the standard safety gear can now be shared by both vessels and further decrease unneeded redundancy (and weight)
5) Instead of 2 sets of nav gear, electronics, etc. 1 set is all that is needed for both crew.
6) One anchor weighs enough, Two are a waste of weight. A small secondary can be used to stabilize the stern (and prevent the main anchor from coming loose).

Again your input would be highly appreciated

Fred

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Always looking for ways to make good things 'Gooder'

With re-routing of lines and repositioning of the harken blocks one person could control two sails in light to moderate conditions. Just have the mechanics in a mirrored parallel. Since you need a custom center bar to join the two hulls not very difficult. Interesting idea.
Also, is there a word limit on entries because its funny seeing posts to yourself.

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yah No Kidding....
So if I spend that time talking with myself and winning the arguments with myself will that make me a `Convo MasterBeater`

LMAO

Yah it is an interesting idea considering that Hobie Alder made a heck of a lot more money on Cats than SailYaks.

I intend to actually prototype this...

Thanks for your input m8

Fred

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Always looking for ways to make good things 'Gooder'

while the torque loads put on the x-bar mounting points by the Aka/Ama's are considerable, I would think they would be MUCH greater once they are trying to control the movement of a ~90lb yak ... especially in the Z-axis.

XY axis stabilzation would have to rely on the Aka braces ... again not designed for the loads of a kayak.

I think some damping systems need to be added such as bi-directional load braces

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Alan W.

Papaya AI2 to replace my well worn V1
TheTwins - His/Hers 2007 Papaya Hobie Adventure Island's (v1.00.01)
.. and a Hobie Outback SUV

Trinomite:
Interesting thought... I often have our TI loaded to the max with diving gear and passengers wanting for more capacity. What we do now is lash Hobie revolutions between the hull and AMA's when we need more capacity (party barge). It would be interesting to add a second TI (call it a quadrimiran LOL). Rudder control would be a simple removable bar mounted at the back of the rudders connecting the two rudders, could be steered from any of 4 positions (would need strong hands though). The second sail I think would be pretty easy to set up to be furled and unfurled from the opposite side. We found that the power developed by four people all pedaling is sufficient to propel our current party barge pretty well, but usually ends up me pedaling my ass off and the rest drinking and talking. Dive sites are typically 5-7 miles out in open water down in the keys (where we dive most often). I currently have a 2hp gas motor used for emergencies, I would probably switch it out for an 8hp Honda mounted to the center cross bar (preferably with an alternator) on a boat that large.
I cannot imagine rigid bars connecting the two hulls together being strong enough to not rip the AKA braces from the hull as the boat rolls in the waves. If the braces were flexible so the hulls can rise up and down with the waves it would be much less stress on the hulls. What I like about the whole concept is the whole works could be broken down and fit on top of my car (lets see somebody do that with a Sea Ray, or a Getaway), plus you can beach and launch from anywhere. If you add up the total cost (about $12,000) and compare that to anything else out there with 6 passenger (1200-1400 lbs) capacity with a 6 inch draft. The boat with AMA's would be about 16-17 ft wide. I can't imagine the outer AMA's ever touching the water so steering shouldn't be too bad. How well it would sail is anybodys guess. What I like about the concept is the two separate TI's can be separated and sailed independently at any time (which would probably be more fun and much less work honestly). The only down side I am seeing is with two standard sails I'm not seeing the boat as being very fast (masts are too short), and would likely be a bit of a dog sailing wise (as compared to a Getaway), and a very wet ride for everyone. The same thing could also be done with a pair of AI's (many on the forum have multiple AI's).
It's a major problem here in Florida having any kind of trailer or dry storage ($200-$500 per month), anything I do has to be car topped, plus our place in Key West has no parking space for a trailer, and parking anything down there (including a trailer) is $2.50/hour if you can find it. It's all fun to think about however though I love sailing my TI, it's only $250-$350 per day to rent a deck boat in KW and get out to the coral reefs at 25-30mph, (leaving more time for diving, especially when we have 4 to 6 divers), and it's a little safer if the weather changes suddenly. Interesting thought though.
Bob

Hey Passwind
Not sure what exactly what you mean by the z axis. I think you are saying that you are concerned about torque limits imposed on the hulls on the heights of mast and sails.

I first proposed a dual main hull system in my initial post turning 2 AI hulls (at 62 lbs each at it's minimum) into a cat config joined by large struts to connect both hulls together, piggybacked on the crossbraces.

If anything, I would feel more comfortable using a swaged wire/turnbuckle 'X' system to keep the two hulls from twisting apart due to wave action.

The x, y axies could be the concern as that is where the most torque would work on the 2 co-joined main hulls (and certainly a small more weight than sticking 2 amas out into the chop as a counter to the mast forces on the hull (and the V shaped turnbuckle system below deck to spread the load over the entire forestructure and crossbraces...)

The mast mounts on the z axis have already been proven or we might all be wearing our masts as baseball caps.

Thanks for your input. My apologies if I possibly misread your concepts.

Best Regards
Trinomite

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Always looking for ways to make good things 'Gooder'

Hey Bob
Thanks for your input. In truth, I've never set foot on a TI, all the theory here is involved in connecting my own AI attached to another as a different more flexible sailing experience. If that works, well then we could consider moving to bigger rewards.

Wow never realized that the parking costs in the Keys are almost as costly as parking in Downtown Vancouver, BC...$4.00 an hour here.

I understand the cost issues in all the factors you mentioned.
Yup why make a dual AI when I could buy a TI for at least $3k less.

Yet considering your needs, having the ability to Raft up as much as needed, why not?
These are the types of things that make life fun . Why?

Cause you can.

Yes what makes this a fun project is that no AIs will be maimed or be chopped up.

We simply unscrew the 2 struts, disconnect the rudders and get back to what we all seem to enjoy quite a bit:

Keeping the grin off our faces as we pack up our toys for the day

Best Regards
Fred

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Always looking for ways to make good things 'Gooder'

z-axis, as in up/down movement. With the two yaks FIRMLY attached to the X-bars, as Bob hinted, any up/down motion of one yak will severly stress the x-bar hull mounting points probably on both yaks.

In this picture, you can see how Hobie's Wave has its x-bars going through the hull - I'd bet a rudder pin that there's alot more structure inside to distribute the loads than just the hole.

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Alan W.

Papaya AI2 to replace my well worn V1
TheTwins - His/Hers 2007 Papaya Hobie Adventure Island's (v1.00.01)
.. and a Hobie Outback SUV

Passwind
Please look up the parts list for the Wave on Page 42 of the Spring, Summer Hobie sailing parts.
I don`t see a lot of parts in the direction that you pointed to. Other than I have noticed the crossbeams are set into two rather beamy hulls which will distribute the loads over a larger hull beam area.. The crossbars are also tear shaped which stops rotation of the crossbars within the hull cavities.
Keep in mind also, the Wave has slightly less than twice the sail area of 2 Hobie AI`s. The wave also weighs twice as much and can handle 800 lbs of load (party boat, perhaps. I have no intentions of replacing the masts and sails. They stay in their respective positions.
There`s an old saying in the high performance biz:
Just because your Alphonzo De Credenza can do 280 kph, doen`t mean you need to exceed the sound barrier everytime you turn the beast over.
Remember that 4 akas and 2 amas are also available in case the stress loads become excessive.
I honestly can`t see what your concerns are about. We are not hauling 800 lbs of freight. this is a light weight craft doubled in the areas that are probably the strongest part of both entire rigs.

Thanks for your input, m8
Trinomite

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Always looking for ways to make good things 'Gooder'