Rudder Pin design

btw cable ties are not a suitable replacement used one yesterday and it lasted about 30 seconds
Astro, the very reason why the cable tie does not last is that it is undersized in the hole and allows the rudder blade to vibrate violently so effectively cutting it through. This is similar to what would happen to a rudder pin that was too thin for the hole. Try shimming up the system with a thin fibre washer which will kill a lot of the unwanted movement and will give you hours more out of your pin....Pirate

it is very soft...have a hobie dealer sending me some more along with one of the earlier pins to try....

whats the chance of getting some harder ones sent downunder matt?

once i get my replacement pins i will be working on making the system as secure as possible so see how that affects the life of pins. whilst vibration could/will contribute to pin failure i personally think it's the hardness of the pins that are the main contributing factor here

If the engineers feel comfortable about sending test pins out when they are available... we'll let you know.

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Matt Miller
Former - Director of Parts and Accessory Sales
Warranty and Technical Support
Hobie Cat USA
(Retired 11/7/2022)

Your pins and my pins most likely come from the same supplier Astro. There are not that many AIs in Australia yet so the replacement pins would come out of the same box from Hobie Australasia. I have purchased spares in the last few months and my feeling is they seem the same as the original as supplied with the boat.
I personally have not broken a pin yet though inspection back on 13th January as reported in this thread, I found it was already damaged with compression marks top and bottom in the usual spots and distortion of the plastic pin near the bottom. Rather than replace immediately I decided to retain the pin but shim the system so there was little or no movement. I have since been testing this original slightly damaged pin since in some pretty heavy winds and seas and check it after most outings. I estimate the pin has now done 20 additional hours work and I can report no more visible damage can be seen. The pin seems to be holding up well but this thread may jinx it to self-destruct. I'll keep this forum up to date on any developments whilst Hobie try to solve it with the softness issues surrounding the original and replacement pins ....Pirate

hey pirate are you able to post pics of your handy work?

I will when i get it down off its rack next time but you can't see much because it is just a shim washer. All I did was to stiffen up the joint between hull and rudder box and so eliminate any wobble the rudder blade could do by filling the slack between the lower rudder box pintal and the hull pintle with a suitable fibre washer. Seems to be working for me. I do want to drill out and re-sleeve the rudder box holes with suitably sized material but that is a job for when after the warranty runs out....Pirate

I have had one pin failure after many hours of sailing in all types of weather. It proved very easy to replace from on top of the A1 and without the need for a pliers or tool. I did not get wet at all. That impressed me mightily.....the water was very cold. A spare pin ( D Type ) in the rear hatch is a great idea. Now I need to gte myself a few more but the worry has ceased should it happen again.

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Better to be a live donkey than a dead lion!

Went sailing today with the new tramps. They really work well. No more bow nets needed, Wind was 18 to 20 and chop was nice. A neighbor and I both broke rudder pins within minutes of each other. Had to drift to shore to change them.................from another thread on this forum

This is still an unresolved subject. How are the Hobie tech staff getting on with it Matt?...Pirate

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Master of the galleon 'Pirates Lot'

Pirate,

Do you think the tramps somehow placed more stress on the rudder causing the pins to break? Why did you have to drift to shore? Could you not use the paddle as a temporary rudder?

Keith

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2015 AI 2, 2014 Tandem

"Any intelligent fool can make things bigger and more complex ... It takes a touch of genius and a lot of courage to move in the opposite direction." A. Einstein

"Less is more" Anon

Hi Keith,
The author of that thread is Phil Summers not myself who I have never met or spoken to. I have no opinion whether the tramps contributed to broken pins though common sense tells me probably not. It is a strange coincidence that both AI's broke pins within minutes of each other but unless other owners with tramps fitted have similar experiences I guess we will put it down to a freak happening.

Not sure why Phil and his friend did not jury rig the paddle as a rudder but it strengthens my argument that there is a significant safety issue these pins keep breaking when they are not supposed to.

I am looking forward to the Hobie solution soon....Pirate

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Master of the galleon 'Pirates Lot'

The Hobie preliminary "solution" has been posted many times here. We had a run of pins that appear to have been weaker than designed. The engineers have checked production systems and then pins as they arrive. I believe this is the primary issue with the pin failures of the last year.

As far as a safety issue? Not to minimize the issue where a boat looses steering suddenly, this is a problem, but this is much more of a "hassle factor" than a safety issue. Not good, we know, but you can replace the pin, use the paddle to steer, the drive to pedal, the sail to move... you can get somewhere you need to go.

Ultimately, the pins ARE designed to fail as a safety for the hull and rudder housing structure, so simply making these stronger... for the second time in the boats three year history... is not necessarily a solution.

The engineers are still working on this. The pins need to fail before other parts fail... that is a difficult balance and one that we need to find. One that we thought we HAD found. Then the materials / production issues came along. Of course, we have many boats and many more older pins in circulation with unknown breaking strengths, so we will likely see this continue for some time.

_________________
Matt Miller
Former - Director of Parts and Accessory Sales
Warranty and Technical Support
Hobie Cat USA
(Retired 11/7/2022)

I have decided I am just going to live with it. I have three spares and have not had to use one of them yet, though I have been out only about 15 times or so. (I just got back from a month up North and am anxious to get the Kayak back in the water.)

Anyway, my dealer charges $3.50 each for the pins. If I break one or two a year I can live with that. I think we are making too much of this issue.

Ron P.

We all have to live with it Darwinian and I not wanting to continue to beat my tin drum just for the fun of it. It is in reality a known weakness in the AI system that needs to be fixed. I guess we will just have to give time for all the new 'quality assured' pins to filter through to the consumer to see if the problem continues. Personally I am very doubtful that pin quality is the problem but earlier posts in this thread more than cover all that ground. Matt again states the pin solution is the 'preliminary' solution and I am keen to read what eventuates from Hobies more thorough R & D....Pirate

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Master of the galleon 'Pirates Lot'

Keith and all,
The tramps do not contribute to any stresses on the rudder pin that I could tell. I tried to change mine out while sitting on the back of the boat but it kept going under water and slamming the rudder around. I did get it in the hole but couldn't get it down below the strings. I was a 10 minute drift from the shore and was drifting at 3 mph so didn't worry about paddling or putting the peddles in.
I did have the rudder pop up once earlier but reseated it and all was well. I hoped the second one was the same but this time it was "broke".
I had greased the broken one with some Phil Woods waterproof bicycle grease which made things really slick trying to change including the strings
I agree with Matt that it is not a real safety issue but more just a pain in the "&&&". I have both of the broken ones if someone wants to look at them. OK, here they are. Two different boats within 10 minutes of each other!

I had a few rolls of sail furled and we were both beam reaching. Both of these were the D top pins.

Here is a picture of a Delrin rudder pin with O ring done by a famous machinist who happens to work on aerospace projects. Does anyone have any ideas on the suitability of it? I think I will try it out!


Back to the tramps...... I couldn't see that they put anymore stresses on any part of the boat, other than my butt being on it and even then there were no feelings of "OMG is this going to come apart under me"!

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Phil Summers
08 AI