I hate the $#%& mast hook!!

I've recently acquired a Hobie 21 SE and have really grown to hate the mast hook system for the main halyard. I've owned and raced OD keelboats from J24's to Farr 40's and have yet to encounter a system as rediculous as this. I found a few threads about this from a 2005 but none with a proven answer. Here's my question:

1) Has anyone successfully gotten rid of the mast hook and gone with a new low stretch halyard with 2 cleats at the bottom of the mast?

2) Will changing the existing system to the one described above damage any other components of the comptip?

Answers will be appreciated.

Many thanks,

David Gauci
Hobie 21 SE #195
"Urban Legend"

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David Gauci

Two problems I see with your plan...

The mast head sheave is most likely not designed to take the load of full mainsheet & downhaul tension, so there is a possiblity of damaging that.

Also, since catamarn sails are quite sensitive to downhaul and mainsheet tension, any stretch in the halyard or slippage of the cleat is going to have a noticable negative effect (i.e. you won't be able to get enough downhaul tension).

I know there have been discussions on the Hobie 18 forum recently as well as a FAQ on this site that you may investigate.

I currently sail or have sailed a Hobie 17, 18, and 20, all of which use the halyard hook & ring system. I almost never have a problem. Here is my advice:

I don't know if the 21 had a "flopper" on the hook. If it does, my opinion would be to remove it - it just adds complication.
My preference is to use a halyard ring that has a small hoop welded on top which is used for tieing off the halyard (with a stopper knot).
Start with the bows pointed directly into the wind, this is absolutely critical. If the wind is more then about 10degrees off of dead ahead, things will be quite difficult.
Secure the ring and shackle to the head plate of the sail with the knot in the halyard facing towards the mast.
Hoist the sail all the way up the mast until the ring hits the top - hold it there.
Have the second person rotate the mast about 70 to 90degrees. Rotate the mast so that the hook turns towards the ring.
Release the halyard and pull down on the sail keeping the mast rotated. You should feel the ring engage the hook (if you release the rotator before releasing the halyard, there is a chance the ring will slip past). Once the sail is hooked, you can let go of the rotator.

sm

Preloading the haylard with three or four rotations helps cement the deal.

I also installed a block at the rear crossbar and one at the front so I can thread the halyard through and hoist the main solo. The final block at the front beam is so I can put my foot on the striker rod, put my butt on the hull and pull the last bit up, then rotate the mast and pull down. It can be a bit annoying if you're hoisting with someone who doesn't understand what's going on, or you let halyard tension off too soon, or they let rotation go before pulling down

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Sheet In...Max Out
www.fleet297.org
sailflatlands at gmail dot com

Yeah, what those two dudes said, and...

You just need a little technique my friend. Unlike the J24, the H21 stick is not a giant tree stuck in the deck, it rotates. Also, putting the pressure from the halyard to the base of the mast with a cleat or whatnot makes the mast compress and puts some strange forces on the whole rig.

Here's what to do:

First, clean and lube the sail track. Sailkote, silicone spray etc. Make sure that there aren't any snags or deformities in the track or the bolt rope.

Then do this...sort of:



The only difference that I recommend compared to the above is go out and spend the $30 on the Aussie Halyard Ring P/N 3064. Unless something is jacked up, this will solve all of your worries. Knot goes toward the rig!!

P.S. If someone pipes up and says they love the flopper and that you should leave it. Simply put, they're wrong.

Hope that helps!!

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Sail Revolution
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Yeah, what the other guys said.

Once you get the proper ring and get the technique of rotating the mast one way to get the dang thing to hook, and the other way to get it to unhook, it is really quite painless and easy. Once I got the rotation thing down, I haven't had a single problem for the past 5 years.

I didn't describe WHICH way to rotate to get it to hook or unhook BECAUSE, the hook is on the Starboard side of the H-18 Comp Tip, and on the Port side of the all aluminum mast on the Hobie 18.

Only you know which side it is mounted on your mast.

The trick, when raising the sail, is to get the sail up to within the last couple of inches of being fully raised, then rotate the mast so that the hook will engage the ring as you pull it up those last few inches and then release the tension on the halyard so that the ring drops onto the hook.

Then, when you want to lower the sail, pull on the halyard to raise the ring off of the hook, rotate it the other way so that it disengages the ring and release tension on the halyard, and give the sail a bit of a tug downwards, to bring the ring below the hook, then you can let the mast straighten back out, and the sail should drop without any problem whatsoever.

That techinique should give you many happy hoists and drops.

Good luck
Stephen

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If the grass is greener on the other side of the fence, maybe it is time to water your own lawn.

David,

Your frustration is heartfelt and real. The problem is not one of a faulty design so much as one of a system that is different than what you have known.

The masthead halyard lock is standard on any decent cat and we all have learned to master it. It works perfectly when you get the hang of it.

The only time this question comes up is when someone like yourself has a bad day with his new cat.

Trust us all when we say...don't change it".

You might get something half-assed to work, but your sail will never set right. With J/24 and big-boat history, you certainly wouldn't want a badly shaped mainsail.

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Jack Woehrle
Wave #100
H20 #287 "Tallahassee Lassie" (down in FLA)

Try the setup the Tiger/FXone has, that's a real pain in the butt. Good design, pain to use. I feel lucky when I get the sail up or down easily.

Now guys and gals,

I can not be the only one who can master the Flipper/flopper ... I love my "Flipper" ... I raise my sail ALONE all the time ... no yelling to the crew ..... no stupid rotate this way .... that way .... And when the day is done I can drop my sail easily and quickly with no assistence.

It is about technique and finess ... it is not about BRUT stength .....

Now there was a thread several months ago either here or on the H18/H18SX ... "Flipper" or "Hooking the Mainsail" ..... check it out.

I like my H18 mast w/ flipper much better then my P19 w/ just a plain hook. I do have "issues" sometimes getting that sail unhooked .....

First, there is all the pressure/load you put on the tramp as you hold/pull the halyard, while standing behind the mast to rotate it (my tramp is an origonal 84' Blue, I can't get a Med blue tramp and my new "Grey Mesh Tramp" is "back ordered" from Hobie for the last 4 months!!!! I'm about to say F___ -it and order a Sunrise Yacht Products tramp ... this is one of the reasons I've have issues w/ HOBIE CAT and "One-Design"... but I digress ...) .... next lets analyze how many "tasks" there are .... one hand pulling then holding the halyard .... one hand rotating the mast .... one hand pulling down on the sail .... That makes three hands ...... MMmmmmm .... by my calculations I'm one hand short ????? Now I have yanked/pulled the sail up w/ one hand ... rotated the mast w/ the other .... drop the halyard grabbed the sail and get the sail to drop .... that's what I have to do w/ my P19, it works but it just is not as easy .... (and that boat has a new Sunrise Yacht Products Tramp on her!!!)

FYI: This weekend the Thunderstorms were coming fast and were close .... too close ... hit the beach .... and sent my 13 yr old niece Megan to safety .... dropped the sail with one pull by myself .... then I ran away as fast as I could!!!!!

So here is my challenge ..... lets set two H18's up side by side ... one w/ a flipper ... one with-out .... lets see who can hook and unhook the main the easiest .... SINGLE HANDEDLY!!!!!

All other things equal ... mast into the wind .... each technique will work .... but there are different techniques for different situations

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HarryMurphey
H-18 mag/ #9458
Fleet 54 Div 11

Go look at the Post " Masthead Sheeve"- can it handle the load? / April 8, 08 .... read my post I explain the "Magic Ju Ju" of using the hook w/ Flipper.

Anyone up for my challange? .... I'll wager a bottle of "Wild Turkey- Rare Breed" ($35-40/ bottle)!!!! The price is going up and I do need a new bottle ....

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HarryMurphey
H-18 mag/ #9458
Fleet 54 Div 11

Forget this sailing job, I'm going to start telling fortunes and reading palms.

J

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Sail Revolution
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dgauci, I feel your pain. Hooking the halyard ring on my 18 used to be an exercise in frustration, then I replaced the halyard. The original halyard was thick, so I got a new one which is much thinner with lower stretch and my problem went away (I don't remember the new size). I suspect the thicker halyard pushed the ring away from the hook as the ring got closer to the sheave on top. I can't give all the credit to the new halyard since my technique has improved, too, but now the main is hooked and released on the first try.

Also, I don't know on which side of the mast the hook is, but to engage the ring I rotate the mast to the opposite side of the hook. Thus, my hook is on the starboard side, and when hooking the ring I rotate the mast hard to port. Releasing the ring the mast is rotated hard to starboard.

If you don't want to buy any spray you can rub a wax candle on the luff of the sail. This is my method of choice. Its cheap.

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Tiger 947/2364

The most important tip that I saw mentioned was having the hulls directly into the wind not even a bit off. I also pull out all the line on my downhaul and connect that before I raise the last few inches. This way when I'm solo and sitting behind the mast and pull the halyard to the top, I push the mast rotator bar to the left with my foot and then tighten the downhaul slightly to set it. I also leave the boom off when raising. If I had someone helping me I'd hand them a pair of binoculars to help.

For solo raising the main on the 18 & 20 it is easiest if you add a small block to the back of the tramp to pass the halyard through (attached with a snap shackle is quick). Then you can stand at the base of the mast and pull the halyard towards yourself while also being able to feed the sail and operate the rotator.

sm

Thanks to all of those that have contributed to easing my frustration. I fully figured that it was a finesse thing but my ego probably wouldn't let me admit it. It speaks a lot for the Hobie community that info is so freely passed. I think I'm going to like it here. I primarily solo this boat a lot and don't like the thought of not being able to get the main down in the event of severe wind so its important that I can handle most anything alone.

ONE THING TO CLARIFY:
To lock it, I push the wishbone to port. Does that mean to unlock it, I have to push the wishbone to starboard? Or is port both on and off?

Seems like I need to take your tips back and give this thing another shot. Getting it onto the hook has never been the issue, its been getting it to release in a predictable manner that's had me stumped. I must admit though, it does seem to respond to a really good rant by mysteriously releasing as if by magic. I suspect that most of my problem is related to the fact that I am keeping the boat in the water at a dock for a few months each summer and can't always park it pointing into the wind when I'm dropping the main. (Damned near killed me to put anti-fouling on it last weekend as it seems so out of character) I'll probably want to start dropping the main while still on the water and just paddle/jib my way back into the slip. Between that and pre-loading the halyard should give it a kick in the butt.

Thanks again all,

David

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David Gauci