Sail Debate

Question have H17 with a oem sail looking at purchasing a square top.dropped my sail of to them and the came back with $1530 kevlar/mylar and battens everything ready to go.Is it really worth it in the matter of a square top vs. pinhead is therea signifigant difference noticed. I would hate to spend the $ and not really notice a difference. That would be alot of $ wasted.Is it really worth it am i going to say holy @#$% this thing rocks.

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The Waters always there,just wanting some good wind.

For that price you can get a nice pentex from Surf City Catamarans or Whirlwind sails. You're going to lose alot of the power as you have no diamonds and a comp tip. But it will be a little nicer. You'll have to upgrade the down haul and sheet like a mother too.

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Rich Vilvens
F-18 5150
[email protected]
http://www.sailblogs.com/member/f-185150sailing/

Keep in mind that if you buy a replacement sail from anyone besides Hobie, you will eliminate yourself from class racing, the most fun racing there is. I just checked prices for factory H17 sails on the Mariner Sails site, http://www.mariner-sails.com. A new Hobie factory white main will cost $1232, a custom colored sail will cost $1480. Both factory sails will cost you less than your square top estimate. Will you notice a difference in speed with a square top? I don't know. As pointed out above, without spreaders and diamond wires and with a comp tip mast, you won't be able to harness all of the extra power up top. You'll aslo get more heeling moment. Your rig isn't designed for a square top. Unless you are sailing with other H17s, I think it would be hard to notice any minor increment in speed that a square top might yield. And if there are other 17s to sail with, that's another reason to keep it class legal, so you can compete with them at Hobie regattas. I just bought a new main and jib for my H20. I went with class legal sails.

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Mark Van Doren
H16 Seabreeze #112205 (Richard Petty Signature Edition)
H14T Fantasia #47787
San Juan 28

It's kind of a tough quesiton, really. Here's my take-

The OEM Hobie sail is pretty good, but not great. You're looking at 1980's technology as far as cut and materials and sometimes they have a tendency to miss little details in finishing (I've had sails with cleats put on backwards or small details that needed touching up). One of the things that I really do not like about the stock Hobie 17 sail in particular is their choice of tack grommet. I've had 2005 and 2007 sails and both of them used this cheesy grommet that half pulled out in the first couple uses and had to be reinforced with 1" nylon webbing. I don't know why they use this grommet, on the 16 & 18 they use a much better grommet (who know's maybe they've changed by now). In any case, with Hobie OEM, you'll get a good sail that'll last several seasons, and that was designed specifically for your boat. It's performance and durability is pretty well established.

For a custom sail, I would definitely look towards a sail maker that specalizes in catamaran sails and in particular has built Hobie 17 sails. There are certainly going to be benefits of using modern materials and a modern cut (assuming the sail maker is familiar with your boat). You'll also be able to have a sail made to suit your size and conditions. I wouldn't expect to see a quantum leap in performance, but you should see some level of improvement. I would expect to see a mild improvement in range and gust response by going to a square head sail, but don't think that a square head sail is going to change your Hobie 17 into an FX-1.. Also improved durability, stretch, and possibility a slight weight reduction from switching to modern materials. Last, I would expect a high degree of attention to detail and customer service when paying for a custom sail. I'd ask the sail maker for references and contact previous customers- do some homework before buying. If all looks good, it'll probably come down to price.

Of course the class racing issue makes this all a moot point. If you want to class race, you have to have Hobie OEM equipment.

sm

IMO there is a noticeable difference in the power of a squaretop vs a pinhead. In the light stuff the squaretop will be more powered up and in the heavy the comptip will spill it off to keep you somewhat controlled. I have sailed with both sail types and the difference is real and evident. Look at the I-17R to see what a 17' squaretop cat can do. Crap, you can retro fit your mast with diamonds if you want and kick ass in open class racing, or just throw a H18 mast on it and really go.

(quote) As pointed out above, without spreaders and diamond wires and with a comp tip mast, you won't be able to harness all of the extra power up top. You'll aslo get more heeling moment. Your rig isn't designed for a square top.

Can you explain why not having spreaders and dia. wires and having a comp-tip will not work as good. I never owned a Cat with a comp-tip except the H17. So i don't understand why. My main boat is a H16 w/o a comp-tip.

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The Waters always there,just wanting some good wind.

The diamonds and spredders make the mast more solid. Less bendy or more bendy as you set them.

The newer boats FX-1, F-18, F-16, I-17 , N-20, ect, you can change where and when the mast bends. The adjustable spreader and diamonds you can make the top flex more or the bottom flex more depending on crew weight , weather conditions.

The non diamond mast is going to bend alot with no reinforcement. On the Tiger We have to put prebend with diamonds and have to down haul to open the top of the sail in light air. If you can't get enough down haul on, the square top will bend to windward stalling the sail.
As the wind fills in you can relax ther downhaul. When you get heavy wind you can draw it down to flatten it out again.

A modern cut and modern materials will require more down haul , more sheeting pressure, and alot more tuning. If you get a square top you may have to shorten the sail a few inches to get enough down haul room. Modern Pentex Square top sail like the tiger are running 16:1 down haul and 10:1 main sheets. that pressure would be alot on a 16 or 17 mast.

A better option would be to have a pin head cut fatter out of mylar or pentex. Just have the sail cut deeper and add to the trailing edge by about 2 to 3 inches. Same effect by adding sail area but it will be easier to control and less stressfull on the mast.

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Rich Vilvens
F-18 5150
[email protected]
http://www.sailblogs.com/member/f-185150sailing/

I am finding this post very informative, there is so much to learn about sail shape, trim and style. I have tried to figure out how to get more power out of my getaway without over taxing the support structure for the mast. Again I looked at a different main or a larger jib, a larger jib would work but hard to find locations for the blocks to be able to run up wind close hauled.

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06 getaway -- always remember, man with both feet in mouth have no leg to stand on.

So i'm gathering it's not just a matter of replacing with a square-top and all will be well,would have to upgrade other components. It's not just a simple fix i'm glad i asked as once again i've learned more.I dont race in any Hobie events as i live in Northern,MI and theres not any events that im aware of in the neighborhood.But race with the Yatch club and there everything from Interlakes up to 55' Monohulls and 40" Tri's so maybe i just upgrade to a new Hobie sail thats a rough one to figure out.I do appreciate everyone input as i learned more,Thank you

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The Waters always there,just wanting some good wind.

If all you want is more power from the same size sail you can have one custom made. More curve in the luff will be a fuller sail when up the mast. More power same sq ft of sail. Alot of the A cat and F-18 pro teams and Tornado teams have their sails cut to match their weight.

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Rich Vilvens
F-18 5150
[email protected]
http://www.sailblogs.com/member/f-185150sailing/

Another consideration is resale value. I think a Hobie built sail will have a greater appeal to a greater population of potential buyers because it will afford them the opportunity to go class racing. I doubt there are many potential buyers that would pass on your boat because it didn't have a square top.

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Mark Van Doren
H16 Seabreeze #112205 (Richard Petty Signature Edition)
H14T Fantasia #47787
San Juan 28