Head up or Fall off?

In response to a debate that was sparked in another post about the seasons first blooper I thought I would post this here.

The premiss so far:

A gentlemen was sailing his H18 for the first time this season, was flying a hull, and a puff of wind came along and capsized his boat. There was no spin and he was solo. The question is when you are flying a hull and a puff of wind comes along do you head up or fall off to keep from heeling further over or capsizing?

Sheeting out is an option and probably the better option at that, but let's, for the sake of this discussion, assume it is not possible.

Let's hear what you have to say and why you chose your response.

My stance is to head up. Since the sail is a huge vertical wing heading up will decrease it's angle of attack, thus decreasing it's lift. This will in turn reduce the heeling moment. It will also reduce the effective area of the tramp to the wind.

Falling off will increase the angle of attack, thus increasing lift (up to the point of stalling the wing). This will in turn increase the heeling moment. It will also present a larger area of the tramp to the wind which will assist in heeling you further over.

Allright, let's hear some rebuttals!

_________________
Nick

Current Boat
In the market
Previous boats owned
'74 Pearson 30
'84 H16
'82 H18 Magnum
St. Louis, MO

Nick,

No one's going to rebuke what you have just stated. Slam the rudders over to weather and you'll slow down pretty quickly.

From the incident that started this "discussion"...I wondered if when he was sailing out of the "protected waters" in to the area of stronger winds if there was not a shift of wind direction. Or in sailing out of the area of lesser wind he may have actually "thought" he was close hauled, when in fact he may have been sailing a reach to broad reach. Then when his natural instinct said "head up" that actually exasorbated the problem. We will probably never know.

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hobiejohn at earthlink dot net
Fleet 297

Depends on how close to the wind you are sailing. Sometimes it is better to head down. Imagine sailing on a broad reach and you hit a puff. If you head up, you come up to beam reach and than closer hauled before getting up high enough.

_________________
Matt Miller
Former - Director of Parts and Accessory Sales
Warranty and Technical Support
Hobie Cat USA
(Retired 11/7/2022)

Without the option to sheet out, the best option is to head up since falling off may also cause a pitchpole.

However, perhaps a livelier discussion would be whether it is better to sheet out or head up to avoid a capsize. I propose sheeting out is the better choice. My recreational experience on a 16 is when flying a hull we like to move our weight to the stern to avoid a pitchpole, and if you let out the main then you lose power and the hull comes down. But if you head up then there's the risk of losing power while still flying a hull, then the weight at the lee stern (at least in my 215 lb. case, plus crew) has been known to sink it - and that can't be corrected because you're already hiked out to avoid a capsize. Yes, I've done that. That is why I prefer sheeting out.

I knew I would learn something in this discussion! I never even thought about doing anything different on a broad reach. My only question is if you leave your mail traveler where it is and you transition from a broad to a beam reach I understand that your speed would increase, but wouldn't the heeling moment decrease since the center of effort of the sail is point more forward and less to leward?

I'm a technical person and I like to make sure I understand the whole situation. As long as I understand how things work, I find I am much better at making the correct decision when a new but related situation arises.

_________________
Nick

Current Boat
In the market
Previous boats owned
'74 Pearson 30
'84 H16
'82 H18 Magnum
St. Louis, MO

Lets assume we're sailing close hauled; on my boat, a Getaway, I have to be slightly off the wind to lift a hull anyway. My response to "overflying" is first to ease sheet or to head up a little. I can envisage that if the angle of heel is high enough, say 45degs, and one heaves the tiller to lee ward there could be a tendancy for the boat to turn and the mast to continue on the origonal course, thus pulling the boat over.
Well thats my theory and I'm sticking to it!?!

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Dave B

Dave B,

Good point. I'd admit the "quickest" method is releasing the sheets, that is, in a close hauled, hard to weather, situation.

_________________
hobiejohn at earthlink dot net
Fleet 297

We all agree about sheeting out to prevent a capsize, but I was trying to keep the discussion to using the tiller only.

The fear about the momentum of the mast pulling you over... is it valid? Is there really enough mass up there to do that?

I'm trying ot learn from all of you who have been doing this longer than me. Many things make sense in my head, but in the real world it's another story...

_________________
Nick

Current Boat
In the market
Previous boats owned
'74 Pearson 30
'84 H16
'82 H18 Magnum
St. Louis, MO

OK, I'll correct my earlier post.

Slamming the rudders over is not the best idea. This will cause the rudders to stall, in a high flying hull scenario. If your hull is way up out of the water and you stall the rudders, and due to the fact you would be going relatively slow already, would probably result in capsize, because of the stalling you'd be rendered out of control until the rudders gain flow again. If you're that "close to the edge", or with a hull way up there, steering out of it is probably the riskier choice. Dumping the main would be my primary choice.

Conversely, if your hull is just lapping the top of the water and you're carrying a lot of speed, then steering, heading up, is an option to sheeting out the main sail. If a huge puff hits steering hard to weather, in conjunction with releasing the main will work, as with the speed comes the ability of the rudders to maintain flow.

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hobiejohn at earthlink dot net
Fleet 297

Thanks, John, for clearing that up. I agree with your assessment.

I've always wondered about this question myself and have tried out many different strategies...none of them super successful. The lake I practice on is extremely shifty and gusty which has given me a lot of unhappy capsizing experiences. A header is going to kill your speed no matter what but it's those lifts you've gotta watch out for. Your course gets changed from close hauled to something closer to a reach. Heading down is asking for a pitchpole and heading up, well it's a lift so you'll head up far before you kill your speed (all the while you're gaining more speed). A helpful trick I've found is when getting hit by an unexpected lift, head up slowly (quick rudder movement absolutely kills) and furl about 1/3 of the jib in which gives better steering and prevents the leeward bow from continuing on its submarine sideways course. This usually works for H14s. Usually.

-Laura

Matt Miller is corerct,

It would depend on what point of sail you where on, If you where say beam reaching, or going more towards down wind, I would do an S turn down wind and greatly oversteer the rudders a bit (being carefull not to Gybe.) This gets the boat going down wind, and changing the AOA of the sail that radically in effect stalls your foil and detaches the flow, not to mention stopping your boat like a rock (So you don't have any apparent wind). If I had to , I would repeat the hard S maneuver anytime I build up speed, or after the boat is flat, round back up hard with the sheet out, so I am not accelerating through a reach again. (Now if you are in big swells you would probbably not want to use this meathod) Then I would just dump the sheet, and make sure you don't get broadside to a swell and broach.)

The problem sometimes if you head up without sheeting out, your inducing more of a heeling moment on the boat, which will quickly overcome your righting moment, and away you go. If your close hauled and beeting to windward, by all means head on up. It's very easy to get a feel of balancing the boat out when you get a puff and start heeling, slowly ease the boat into a pinch, and when the boat starts to take a more even pitch, slowly head down, and keep going like this. Allot of fun!

The best course of action, if you are not sure what the boat is going to do, is just dump the sheet, even if it means putting youself in the water on the trap.

You have put into words so eloquently and accurately what I tried to say the first time. Great description of the S manouevre. This is a 'post' to the Cat sailors in our club.

Let's go sailing!

_________________
2015 H16, with spin,
SOLD 1989 Hobie SX18 Sail # 1947 "In Theory..."
'Only two things are infinite, the universe, and human stupidity. But I'm not sure about the former.'

[quote="Hobie Nick"]The fear about the momentum of the mast pulling you over... is it valid? Is there really enough mass up there to do that?
quote]

Only on large multies..... Not an issue for off the beach.

If working...... Head up.

If beam reach or shy...... What ever tacktics call for. are you below the lay or above. Do you want to head down with pressure and come up when it is a little lighter.

If on a reach and it is a suviva manouver....... If sailing closer than beam head up or if you have a firm stance and trim..... ease and bear away.

If on a beam or broader...... Never go up. You'll go swimming.

Even if it is not effiecient........ Practice doing the 'Wild Thing' in your H16 and it will give you confidence in handeling the boat in these circumstances.

My pratice as a solo 18 guy ,has been to depower the sails at all times, however one problem can pop up from time to time and that is when your up at the top and about to go over, it becomes very hard to uncleat or dejaw the main sheet, ( why would I be locked in to the jaws at the top? don't ask.) the angle on the jaw is so low at this point that it becomes very hard to uncleat unless one leans up and towards the center of the tramp, and over you go, so if one is so let's just say careless to be locked in then the best option is to point up of go for a swim.
harvey
h16,h18 1979