Hobie USA, Dated Designs?

Let me start by saying I'm not trying to throw rocks at Hobie USA. After looking at the Hobie USA lineup and that of the rest of the world, I question how long it will be before they start really losing ground in the market place as the H14, H16, F18 fleets continue to age.

From an outsiders stand point, it looks as if Hobie USA has done little to develop newer, faster, and lighter weight models as the rest of the world has done. Yes, HC USA has the Tiger, but HC Europe did the Tiger (F18), FX One, Fox and most of the more modern boats in the HC lineup... Most of which aren't even marketed here in the US. I'd guess the 20 is about the most modern boat HC USA has done, which is still available today anyway.

I completely agree HC USA should continue to offer boats such as the H16 as there's still clearly a market for these boats, but when are they going to start looking forward? After they can no longer sell another boat because every other boat on the market is at least 75+ lbs lighter? I'd love to see HC USA develop a competitive F16. How about an A cat? There certainly has to be other opportunities out there which would allow HC USA to show they can still build a modern and competitive boat. Maybe I'm off base here, but IMO Hobie USA needs a flagship cat to show they still have a pulse and are still in the game.

A company can only rest on their name and sell parts for so long before it catches up to them. I love the Hobie brand name, but I question their strategic thinking in the cat market as I don't see anything modern and exciting in their pipeline. Am I the only one that feels this way?


And FWIW, I own a Hobie so I'm not trying to bash...

From a dealer point of view, the rotomolded boats have been a huge seller and created tons of recognition for Hobie Cat. The Wave, Getaway and Bravo have probably done more to get new people into sailing than anything else currently on the market.

I know that our business in these boats has far outpaced the sales of classic glass boats. But I don't believe it has anything to do with the design of the glass boats. I believe that the affordability, durability and ease of sailing are why the Roto's do so well.

And now there's the Adventure Island sailyak coming down the road that should be a huge seller. We've gotten word that our shipment will be heading out on Saturday, and we're giddy about the new toy. Chris and I are talking about closing the shop to go play once they show up.

So while the development of "Cool Boats" may not be up to your liking, I think Hobie has done an excellent job of growing the market.

But...

I too would like to see a new high performance boat. It could be the thing that makes me a boat owner again.

Brian C

Well, there's really two ways to go with the Cats. I'm not trying to bash either side nor the original poster, just presenting my views on this.

1) Lighter, faster, higher tech. These boats are often fragile, expensive, and quickly obsolete (esp. development box-classes like the A-Cat). Hobie Europe seems to make more boats in this direction, but even then they are designed with durability (especially since the F18 rules have a fairly hefty [comparatively] minimum weight requirement and a restrictive use of carbon and other super-light materials).

2) Easier, more durable, lasting. These boats are slower and heavier but have wider appeal, which seems to be what Hobie USA is going for (think Wave and Getaway).

Hobie Europe has a lot of boats in their lineup, but they also have a more popular market. If Hobie USA started offering all those boats, what would become of the racing scene? It's hard enough to find a good-sized fleet with the fewer boats that are sailing here - what if there were 12 more different ones?

As materials and construction technique advance, I think we can get both lighter, fast, and more durable at the same time. For glass/composite boats, I think the vacuum-impregnation method that M & M (who designed the Wave, incidently) is perfecting on the Nacra A2 will have applications as it grows more common. They are using it for light weight, but if it was used for the same strength and durability as current glass/composites with lighter weight, everyone wins!

Really, I see three categories to fill for Hobie racing:

1) Lighter weight doubles, newer sailors entry point on the cheap: Hobie 16.

2) Heavier doubles, those looking for more performance: Used to be Hobie 18, now Tiger, though the entry cost on the Tiger is still quite high, it will go down as the class ages.

3) Singles: Hobie 17 in the US. I'm not sure how much longer this is going to last. Is the 17 going to continue to sell well enough for Hobie USA to keep up production? FX-One is available but is more expensive, rare in the US, and difficult to use in shallow waters (rivers, bays with bars, etc) unless you like replacing $450 daggers. What would it take to get critical mass on the FX-one with enough used boats to get an easier entry into the class? The A-Class is the ultimate here, if you don't mind replacing a $25k boat every 3-5 years to stay competitive.

4) The bonus classes - things people sail just because they can. Wanna race stock Waves? 14's just because you can? THe ultimate here is the Puddle Duck class - square, open rules but cheap, these boats will never, ever go fast no matter waht you do - but you can sail them competitively. I wonder if we'll see competitive Adventure Island sailing - they seem to be selling like hotcakes. It would be an interesting mix between sailing and, umm, biking?

Things I'd like to see Hobie come out with:

* A boat for those that are too heavy to sail the 16 competitively, but not as expensive as the Tiger. This may become moot when there are enough Tigers that are old enough used that the price goes down, but as a development/Formula class, the newer boats will have an advantage even in the Tiger "one-design" class.

* A double-handed Tri with curved ama-daggers - like a mini open-60 Tri. Imagine flying two hulls, riding on the lee ama as it rides on the foil effect of its dagger. Fun and more practical than the Tri-Foiler. as there wouldn't be a limited 2-person cockpit - the floatation of the main hull could support lots of people on the tramps for fun sailing. Tri's have to fold or come apart to trailer though, which is always complicated, especially if the amas are full weight-bearing.

Neither of these are too likely.

Anyway, a long ramble - I'm sure several other people have posted since I started.

-Tim

_________________
Tim
Unofficial Fleet 72 Communications Officer and Div 4 Webmaster
http://www.hobiefleet72.org
http://www.div4.hobieclass.com/

The 14 is no longer produced here, so actually there is only the 16, 17 and 20 that are USA boats. Fiberglass that is.



My question, does Hobie USA or dealers benefit much importing/selling the Hobie Europe boats? Pretty vibrant class.



You and me both brother. The "classic" design of the H16 is the stumbling block there. Too bad. I think the F16 class is really going some where.



Wow, now that's an expensive class, but who is sailing the fiberglass boats still produced? Probably (except for the 16) a goodly amount are racers. I suppose there may be some baby boomers out there willing to pony up $20K for a recreational boat as well, look at the price of PWCs.

Looks like Hobie Europe has done a good job trying to tap into some of the 40 and under crowd with some "extreme" designs. The roto USA boats are a good base for robbing future racers or those wanting to fill the "need for speed" with a high performance fiberglass boat.

There's at least one generation of americans lost (GENX 65-81) and very, very few have ever heard the name Hobie. The Millenial generation (82 to present) are as big as the Boomers (75 million) and I believe ready for something fresh. We'll all eventually die, and our old school boats with us.

I'd hope that someone (USA) will envision a niche for a new hp, glass, 2-up boat for those lighter crews (as not to step on the 20 market). Something light (160lbs. to right) and fast (low 60's portsmouth), with a genaker and all the bells and whistles. Hobie has been excellent at creating boats in the past. Hobie USA's only "modern", true racing/performance boat is the 20 (15 year old design). I'd agree it's about time.

Adventure Island sailyak Can we get in the 21st century also? Pretty please.

Oh ya, I do go outside, but I wear, sunglasses, hat and SPF50.

_________________
hobiejohn at earthlink dot net
Fleet 297

Decisions, descisions what to build?

We have a partnership with Hobie Cat Europe. They have been developing high performance boats and we have been developing entry level and recreational product. We sell rec to them, they sell high end to us. No need to duplicate effort, but we are seeing now that Hobie Cat France is seeing the light. They are starting to concentrate on recreation again.

So, how are we doing? Very well. There is no doubt that we have made some very intelligent decisions here in the USA. This cannot be an ego thing (Hobie USA not building the best / fastest cat. We can let Hobie Europe do that), we have to build what sells.

_________________
Matt Miller
Former - Director of Parts and Accessory Sales
Warranty and Technical Support
Hobie Cat USA
(Retired 11/7/2022)

Damn, wrong answer Matt!!! We want something smaller than the Tiger.

Can we pick out what to import? How about the MAX
http://www.hobie-cat.net/site_gb/?produits,hobie_max
Oh crap, it weighs 321 pounds.

Well the right lighweight boat just doesn't exist...yet. Come on USA. Build us a boat.

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hobiejohn at earthlink dot net
Fleet 297

Well, define "best"?

I think it's safe to say that more people have sailed or sailed on a Hobie 16 than any other catamaran. However, there are more Waves out there in both personal hands and especially in the rental/resort market. The 16 is no longer selling anywhere near as hot as it was in its heyday - for good reason! If you want a fun boat that you can pile people on and still go fast with just a few, get a Wave or Getaway. If you are looking for high-performance, get a Tiger or a 17 or FX-one or (maybe) a 20.

The point is, in 10 years there will be an unbelievable number of used Waves on the market and in use - by then, will we be able to say that more people have sailed or sailed on a Wave than any other catamaran? I bet so. Sounds like the best boat to me!

Now, best performance, that's another matter. The thing is, best performance rarely lasts ass long as the other best I have defined. Plus, there are many more niches to fill.

I don't know what my niche is. I want a boat for skipper and crew. I want to race but also take family and friends when camping. I don't have enough money for the Tiger, plus the long daggers are begging to explode as they hit the bottom of the lakes or rivers. A 16 has too little floatation for our weight to race competitively - plus, I want my loose-footed sail and mast rotator (sailed my 16 in a regatta after sailing a borrowed 17 in the previous one, drove me nuts)! A 20 is a possibility, but is probably overpowered for the areas I sail in - plus, there are none racing in my area (market penetration is hard stuff).

I think the 18 is my niche - but it is no longer in production. There are a significant number of used boats in decent condition, plus quite a few still racing in the area. Unless I can find a "cheap" Tiger that doesn't need a ton of work...

Anyways, I seem to have wandered off the topic...brainspew!

_________________
Tim
Unofficial Fleet 72 Communications Officer and Div 4 Webmaster
http://www.hobiefleet72.org
http://www.div4.hobieclass.com/

Just watch... the Hobie Mirage Adventure Island will be one of the best selling products that Hobie Cat USA has ever come up with. 21st Century? This is the coolest and most innovative sailing machine ever. There has never been a Hobie Mirage powered sailing boat yet... this is it. We will bring in more new sailors than ever before and that is the key to the future.

We have been through this whole topic again and again over the years. Most of the old timers just don't understand... Hobie Cat would not be here today with some of the thinking that is going on here. We changed our course and have been developing sailing again at the base level. We had run out of customers to sell high performance product to years ago. 5 % of our business is probably glass now. We have always seen, at most, 10% of the product going into racing. The rest has always been recreational use. It is far to expensive to develop product that doesn't sell well. Maybe in the future we will have developed the market again, but for now... we will concentrate on what sells.

_________________
Matt Miller
Former - Director of Parts and Accessory Sales
Warranty and Technical Support
Hobie Cat USA
(Retired 11/7/2022)

No kidding! I was talking with Hobie Cats NW and they said that they ordered, with some reluctance, 5 Adventure Islands on a tip from other dealers that they'd go pretty well.

Those were sold before they arrived, and there are more on order now. I don't think Dan will be able to keep one on the lot to show off.

If it sells well, I want to see a 2-person version Or maybe I'll have to find a way to buy 2...

_________________
Tim
Unofficial Fleet 72 Communications Officer and Div 4 Webmaster
http://www.hobiefleet72.org
http://www.div4.hobieclass.com/

Does it look like this?


What are the statistics? Of the 5% American boating public, 10% are sailors and how many of those are catamarans, and how many of those are racers?

OK, (sigh)...never mind.

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hobiejohn at earthlink dot net
Fleet 297

The problem with high tech - high speed boat sales in the US is a direct result of the manufacturers not grabbing on to the extreme sport movement. Hobie USA does nothing to expose cat sailing to this group of thrill seekers. I am an adrenaline junky. I surf, snowboard, moto-x, bmx and mountain bike. I ride ramps and dirt jumps and race bmx. I race downhill and dual slalom on Mt bikes. I compete in surfing events. This past winter I finally mastered 360's on my snowboard. I am 42 yrs old. Cat sailing in 15kts is exciting, 20kts or more and its an extreme sport by anyones standard. Hobie does little to support racing anymore either. If trash cans with sails or paddles is the only thing thats selling then a company has no choice but to produce them. I believe with strategic alliances with-in the extreme community Hobie or any cat manufacturer could resurrect the cat fleets of the 70's and early 80's. Without embracing this group and developing new boats this sport of cat sailing may forever be in limbo. I own kayaks but I wouldn't consider buying a plastic sailboat from any manufacturer, period.

So in 20 knots can I get the hull out of the water and be flying on one ama? What's the portsmouth rating? Where's the jib? Can I get a spin kit?

_________________
hobiejohn at earthlink dot net
Fleet 297

Haha awesome, I saw that for sale on eBay. What a weird boat!

"Wingsailer"



I live right near the Columbia River Gorge, home of 'XTREME' wind+water sports. What are people doing these days? Windsurfing. Kiteboarding. Jet-skiing (ok not in the Gorge and not a wind-powered sport but the adrenaline junkies are there). The only sailors out here are the local Hobie fleet and the keelboats that are moored in the area (and they are hardly extreme-anything). Windsurfing and kiteboarding is cheaper, easier to pack. Jet-skiing catches the power-crowd as well as being more flexible on windless days.

Also, they are all (ok not necessarily jet-skis) solo craft.

Can we convince these people that a larger, more expensive two-person craft (or even a large one-person high performance boat like the FX-one) is their thing? Possibly.

I don't know how you'd approach it. I'm not an expert, but I can see that the demographic of this group is not the same as it was in the 'X-Games', XTREME ANYTHING 90's (or maybe it is, we've just gotten older ) I'd love to see the reaction from the crazy kite-boarding, windsurfing group if we showed them the video of the NISSAN Tiger in the trench in France pitchpoling at 25+ knts.

_________________
Tim
Unofficial Fleet 72 Communications Officer and Div 4 Webmaster
http://www.hobiefleet72.org
http://www.div4.hobieclass.com/

Technology changes at a head spinning rate and the learning curve is steep.

You've seen I14 sailors in the Gorge right? How are we going to steal those hp dinghy sailors away from that? How are you going to convince a kite boarder a Wave is more fun? You're NOT, they're lost forever.

Remaining "Extremists" include the skaters, BMX'ers, climbers, and even posers. The shallow learning curve and stability of cats don't preclude many thrill seekers.

_________________
hobiejohn at earthlink dot net
Fleet 297

Exactly, what about the video of the 2 Nissan tigers riding waves under spin. That vid was off the hook. Dan Delave uses a clip of that vid in his posts, the red spin jumping off the back. I have friends that kite board, they would beg for rides on my Fox before it broke. Not so excited about the stock 18, maybe my new modified 18 will peak their interest again.