Possible design flaw in Tandem steering?

If there is an intended gap between two parts on the rudder held together by a bolt then there needs to be a spacer between the two halves to maintain the required gap at the correct measurement.
While the gap without spacer works in the AI....? guess there is too much force applied to the TI rudder.
It won't stop me from buying a TI when I get the money but there are some areas for improvement ie the Aka release, spacer in the rudder, and the ever desirable Jib.

_________________

TIDALWAVE, Whereas your troubleshooting efforts are certainly appreciated, I can't concur with your conclusions. If I read your posts correctly, you had no problems for several sessions. You only had difficulties when you inadvertently failed to seat the rudder at the beginning of your problem session. When you eventually recycled it properly, you had no further problems and after several attempts could not get the rudder to screw up. No changes were made to the adjustment bolt during this time (on the water).

It was only after altering the adjustment bolt that you experienced further problems, which caused yet further adjustments:
And you came to this conclusion:This is exactly the same Twist N Stow system that has been in use for 4 years. As we know, there has rarely been a bolt adjustment issue. From your initial troubleshooting comments, the factory setting was evidently correct and functioning well the whole time.

I only bring this up because IMO, you may have excessively loosened the bolt, thus compromising the reliability of the rudder locking system. For others to to follow these recommendations, may cause additional problems for them as well. Again, this is the same system that has not been problematic. The TI I am currently using is adjusted snug but not tight, as set by the factory. It functions 100% correctly and the bolt is 100% stable.
Lets take a closer look at this "rudder clip". It's actually a beefed up version of the original T&S that has worked reasonably well in all applications since 2006. In the following pic (looking up from the bottom) we see the rudder pockets for the TI (left) and AI (right). notice how similar the systems are, but the TI has a deeper pocket for a more positive insertion and a larger, sharper tongue (green highlight) for a more positive engagement of the rudder:


Now lets compare the rudder grooves. The TI groove (again green highlight) is larger and deeper than it's AI counterpart (red), which most people don't even see:


When the rudder is properly locked and tensioned, starboard rudder action presses the tongue into the groove and prevents the rudder from popping out of position.

I do agree that this locking system can eventually wear to the point where it needs to be replaced, but with the glass filled Nylon, it shouldn't happen for a long time. The less robust AI tongue and grooves have held up very well so far.

Again, I don't mean to be argue with your conclusions except as they may create more problems than solutions for others. This isn't to say that problems won't arise, but to call for a system redesign without any substantiation of actual system malfunction may be a little premature.

As per my first thread...the rudder system worked correctly for the first three weeks until
I lost starboard steering. Checking the drum bolt tightness...the drum halves were tight against each other. There was no gap at all. I had to back out the drum bolt to loosen
the drum halves to get the required gap spacing.
Too tight a drum bolt and the rudder will not position itself correctly.
I did not loosen the bolt beyond the Installation recommendation. When the bolt was loosened
to the correct gap spacing...steering was restored.
What I have been trying to get across to new Tandem owners is that there is a chance that
the drum bolt may tighten up on its own causing a loss of starboard steering.
And that it may be worth while to inspect the drum gap every so often so as to make certain that the gap spacing is correct.

As to the statement that it was my fault that the rudder wasn't set in correctly...I never touched the drum bolt before the loss of steering...I had had no need to before that. I found that if the drum bolt is too tight...you can yank down as hard as you want on the spectra lines and the rudder will not drop into the clip! The drum tightness directs whether or not the rudder will drop into the clip. (I carefully adjusted the bolt several times to see if over tightening...loss of the drum gap...was the culprit in not allowing the rudder to set correctly).
My only conclusion was that over the three weeks of sailing and raising and lowering the rudder...the drum bolt slowly must have tightened itself. Because the steering worked fine before that...and I had never touched the drum bolt until after the loss of steering.

I am very relieved to see that all of my angst has been experienced by yet another TI owner.
I have been torn on how to approach getting this issue remedied as I have spent hours with my dealer and hours on my own trying to figure out why this is happening.
The dealer and I have been inside and outside of the hull with the lines retied and checked. My dealer just threw up their hands and gave up.

I have gotten to the place where I wont sail now because the problem is so pervasive.

This issue simply MUST be addressed by Hobie directly as it is most certainly a workmanship or design issue and is causing a major safety problem for a number of owners.

The thing that irritates me the most is the whole "sounds like you didn't have the rudder cleated" comments.

We are adults here, and when we tell you that the rudder is cleated and correctly tensioned, that is not a joke or a childish claim.
Right now, I cannot sail safely in the craft, it is still under warranty and I cannot get Hobie or the dealer to address the issue.
At $5000 a copy I expect MUCH more from Hobie.
Bottom line, there is a REAL AND TANGIBLE ISSUE HERE, and if it continues to be ignored by Hobie and their dealers it will quickly become a COSTLY issue for them...

ONE OTHER THING!

I will gladly take any Hobie represenative out to demonstrate the issue, at their convienience......

Just my 2 cents with my experience with the Island Rudder.

If for any reason you need to raise the rudder or if rudder hits something that causes it to become un-locked you can not get the rudder to relock down, no matter how hard you pull the down line, if the boat is still moving forward.

In other words any water pressure on the rudder blade will keep it from re-locking no matter how many times you recycle the mechanism.

My only solution is to come to a full stop, recycle the rudder and move the tiller handle a little to be sure we are relocked and good to go.

It is actually pretty easy to have the rudder down line stretched and cleated giving all the appearance of a proper lock and still have the rudder unresponsive. Happens even in kayak mode when I have to clear weeds, it takes a bit of patience for the rudder mechanism to reset. Moving the tiller left and right a little helps hasten the rudder back into the notch.

I'm not saying a TI problems are not related to some possible line or mechanical failure. But my own experience with sailing the Island had it's moments of frustration until I worked out some of the nuances of the Twist 'n stow rudder.

Anakritis, I do hope you get the issue resolved. It won't be long before I add a Tandem to my kayak fleet, so I read all these posts with interest.

Don't let that irritate you. I claim to be an adult and have made that mistake myself, along with an embarrassingly long list of others. User error is always a good place to look and easy to correct. We "armchair" mechanics sometimes look to our own mistakes in an effort to help others. No offense to TIDALWAVE was intended.

I also am sorry you're having problems and sympathize with your frustrations. It's too bad your dealer hasn't been able to find the problem. I believe there is a regional tech rep available to help the dealer in such matters?

I saw a similar situation with an AI last year. After everything else failed, it was assumed to be a warped rudder housing. The dealer replaced the entire assembly and I think that took care of it.

Whatever it turns out to be in your case, I wish you a speedy solution!

My dealer is VERY tight lipped about Hobie area and regional contacts and that information has so far elluded me on the web site.

My dealer is a great bunch of people, don't get me wrong, and i appreciate their efforts very much.... But I am still having problems and there is no remedy in sight as of yet.

For now i will have to be happy bass fishing the local canals I suppose...

And yes, I am frustrated, but not angry!
I am just put out that there is no lines of follow up for hobie with a new product release.
So if anybody knows a way I can get ahold of a hobie company rep for south Florida... please share.

And let me be perfectly clear here... The Tandem Adventure is more fun than any old Illinois river rat (thats me) has a right to experience....

We do not have "Tech" reps. We have regional sales reps.

Any issues you have should be easily resolved by the dealer or by them contacting us for a solution. Thus far I have not heard of any issue that should not have been resolved by the information in this thread.

We have not been hearing this from the field, so really not sure what else to try here.

Again... loosen the drum bolt seems to be the first thing. This would allow the rudder to get all the way down.

_________________
Matt Miller
Former - Director of Parts and Accessory Sales
Warranty and Technical Support
Hobie Cat USA
(Retired 11/7/2022)

After following this thread, I checked and adjusted my rudder bolt on my TI, and then marked the rear portion of the bolt with a permanent marker for a quick future visual indicator if it moves.

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Hobie Island Sailing since 2006

I have already figured this out by osmosis. Being an industrial engineer, I have always found distribution and product development organizations that are managed and run by "Sales" personnel to be lacking in product improvement performance and customer satisfaction. So far I have found this to be true here as well.


And this is a PERFECT example of what I am talking about, dismissive and self deluding rationalizations by a "Sales team" driven supply chain.
OF course you are not "hearing this from the field" Sales people would not pass this on, they have to keep making the margin every month... BUT you ARE hearing it here AND from multiple owners and I must point out that you have NO field follow engineering organization.



AGAIN, I have followed the advice in TWO threads for nearly a month now and I still have trouble, consistently and persistently. But hey, if Hobie continues to be condescending and dismissive the problem should just disappear.... sooner or later..... right?
It is amazing to me that such an organization has absolutely NO field follow engineering and refuses to address such a simple issue in assembly and technical writing releases.
Relying on a user’s group forum to solve these issues and lethargic, dismissive follow-up is a hallmark of an organization driven by sales personnel.

Anakritis

I promise, we are not being dismissive here... we just don't yet understand what could be wrong with your rudder system. We do get feedback from the dealers and reps as well as these forums and from history here... do pay attention.

I did have an idea on the drive in this morning... yes, I was thinking about your issue. The blade may now be warped? Strapping the blade down on the deck with the bungee doubled over the top can warp the blade. You should have one cord over and one under the blade.

This warp may induce load that pulls the rudder up? Would seem to explain a lot.

_________________
Matt Miller
Former - Director of Parts and Accessory Sales
Warranty and Technical Support
Hobie Cat USA
(Retired 11/7/2022)

I think I may have figured out what is going on.
I decided to go back and read all the thread content on this issue and then go through the entire steering system to see if I overlooked anything.
I did so and discovered something very interesting.

It seems as though I have a rudder mount that is designed much like that of an AI and not a TI.

In fact the locking tongue and groove on my TI are IDENTICAL to my AI.

Accordingly the rudder never really locks in the deployed position in fact the groove remains 3 to 4 millimeter out and away from the tongue in all positions regardless of how you tension the line.

The spool, washer, line and bolt all seem to be adjusted correctly and in good condition and operating order but the rudder never engages the locking tongue.
The rudder seems to be installed correctly but according to what I am seeing the actual geometry is nothing like what is pictured in the green circle as posted by “Roadrunner“
But rather identical to the red circle in that pic and my AI is identical as well. See this image http://j.imagehost.org/view/0032/z4 found in a post above,
But I will admit that Roadrunner’s post is very confusing, he points to the green circle as being the new design but it looks like the green circle is actually an AI rudder mount. At least my TI rudder mount looks like the RED circle.



The top half of the spool


Bottom half of spool


The thrust washer/spacer


Plain to see the tongue here is the blunt design and is nearly 5 mm out of the groove in the locked position.


Here I am pushing the rudder over yet even then the tongue and groove remain 3mm away from each other.


Here I attempted to re-seat and re-tension the rudder with even worse results.


I have a feeling this rudder mount was a “first design” and has since been upgraded to that pictured in “Roadrunner’s“ post (http://j.imagehost.org/view/0032/z4)

In any case the mechanism simply does not perform and makes sailing dangerous. Until it is remedied under warranty I am high and dry during prime sailing weather….

Oh well… At least I am trying to do something about it and to be heard and not just sitting on my hands.

Have your dealer get you a new rudder Housing & Blade - no charge...we're happy to replace it - not sure what else would help, we've not seen one that won't line up before. There isn't a first or second generation rudder - all TI's have had the same rudder design - there hasn't been any changes to it - this model kayak only starting shipping a couple of months ago now - so its not likely there was a change made so quickly.

Have your dealer get you the parts and try that - simple...sorry again for your issue - we'll get it resolved - that's what we do!

I have been working on this for the past 2 days trying to find out exactly what is going on. Based on careful observation and looking at more than a dozen Hobie kayaks I am fairly certain that there is a tolerance stack-up error in the twist and stow mechanism.

I went to my dealer yesterday to talk about getting a new twist and stow and took the time to inspect a dozen or so Hobies from all models and sizes that employ a T&S system.
What I found was a nicely designed system that allows locking of the rudder and also prevents the rudder from being pushed up when turning in the port direction inherently as a function of the rudder being pushed against the T&S casting and in the starboard direction via the groove and tongue. Under normal conditions only these are needed to keep the rudder in place but during heavy winds and fast speeds the locking mechanism provides the added resistance needed to keep the ruddy deployed in the down position.
On literally every Hobie I tested the rudder seats with a positive click into the tongue and groove as the rudder must deflect over the tongue to seat in the casting, every one performed this way, with the exception of the Tandems....
The tandems, especially my tandem, simply do not even come close to fitting as closely or as positively as the others.
After inspecting the mechanism closely I found the fit and finish to be distinctly different from the earlier models.
The new tandem T&S does not have the same positions, fit, or alignment of the others and simply does not function as well. I can also claim this as a matter of personal experience because my AI performs flawlessly and my TI is persistently problematic.
The only way I can explain these phenomena is through a tolerance stack-up error.
I have seen this issue in countless assemblies throughout my career. It occurs when sub-assemblies of a product design are changed in order to accommodate a new application or function and the same tolerances from the old design are preserved in the new ones. What then happens is the new designs manufacturing process causes new forms to interact with each other differently than the original designs did. This causes forms to operate at the extremes of their intended fit tolerances and when those extremes are stacked together in the whole newly designed assembly you end up with aberrant and problematic products. We certainly have that here, and demonstrably so.
The stack up appears to be between the T&S main casting, the rudder bracket and the rudder itself. The unit interferes with itself both on the rudder and the rudder bracket and there are witness marks to demonstrate this on the bracket and rudder. This interference prevents the unit from fully deploying regardless of how many times it is deployed, and what is worse, the unit also does not line up when "forced into position".
I also checked some rudders for rudder warpage (which mine is not) and I must say that ALL of the older used Hobies I inspected had considerable warpage, many to an alarming degree, YET they all still functioned flawlessly in a locked and deployed position.

MY un-warped rudder, and if you look closely you can see the 7-8mm gap at the tongue and groove.....


Here the rudder never fully engages the T&S tongue and groove, regardless of how many times it is re-deployed


Note the witness marks located at the middle mounting screw on the bracket and on the rudder about 3 inches below the bracket on the right edge.


I have a new T&S coming from Hobie and I can assure you that it will be carefully assembled and inspected before even being mounted.

Hobie manufacturing needs to wake up and take note here, they have a problem that can be easily remedied with a little careful thought and re-tolerancing.