Flipping with Your Tramps On!

These great accessories have been around about a year now and I rarely sail without them. But if the boat were to huli, they could become a real PIA.

Does anyone have experience flipping and righting their AI / TI with these on?

Any techniques or advice you have to share on this subject would be appreciated.

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The Wind Is Your Friend...

I've thought about how I'd deal with that, but thankfully never had to do this. Seeing as the method to right the AI would be to fold in an ama, I'd immediately unclip the tramp and collapse the ama, before trying to right it. I know that's not a special technique, but sometimes just knowing what needs to be done first is half the battle when you're thrown into cold water. Luckily it's easy to dress for the water as you know you'll be getting wet when you take the AI out.

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Would you not use the same technique as a 'normal'cat'?
I am not sure how the AI/TI goes once flipped not I wouldu think before it gets a chance to get waterloged you would grab hole of the side of the ama and place you feet on the hull of the yak or other ama and leaver your weight down to the water. Remember get you AI/TI so that the wind is going to help you once the sail is out of the water. Have the mast facing into the wind.

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Paul, Rebecca & Stephanie

“Huli”? Is that the same as “turtle”? Here in SFL, in Biscayne Bay or the Keys or the Everglades (much of FL coastline) if a sail boat turtles, the mast gets stuck in the mud. I think the AI/TI might be very different than a Hobie cat. With a cat (if it does not turtle), the hulls are vertical (at least that is how you want it) with the tramp out of the water. With an AI/TI, wouldn’t one ama/tramp be down in the water to some degree—probably not vertical, but at some obtuse angle to the water surface with the mast and sail lying near the surface. Is that correct? If that is the case, that is going to be a problem getting the boat upright. It seems to me that the driver is going have to get under water to release the tramp, just as he is going to have to release the sail (which will be a problem if the boat is huli-ed/turtled.) At least, if the boat is turtled, you can release the tramps easily--is that correct?

Two things that I do remember as a Hobie 16 owner many, many years ago was that (1) as the boat capsized, you had to be sure to hang on to the boat, because, after the mast swings around to the windward, it was going to take off on its side because of the tramp. And, (2) when you righted it, again, hang onto the boat and make sure passengers had a rope w/ knots, because it was going to take off. A rope w/o knots will be pulled out of passenger’s hands as the upright boat takes off in strong winds.

I don’t own tramps, mainly because I worry that they may make the boat more prone to capsize in heavy winds. Any comment on that possibility?

Unfortunately, Hobie has not been very helpful in these life-and-death issues. I guess they are waiting for feedback from owners.

Keith

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2015 AI 2, 2014 Tandem

"Any intelligent fool can make things bigger and more complex ... It takes a touch of genius and a lot of courage to move in the opposite direction." A. Einstein

"Less is more" Anon

The one time we had a AI huli or turtle, one of the aka braces broke and the ama folded in. The AI slowly rolled completely upside down and ended up like this:

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Hobie Island Sailing since 2006

Have a look here:
http://www.hobiecat.com/community/viewtopic.php?f=70&t=22159.
I found it easiest to fold one side in, and then use my bodyweight on the opposite ama to roll it back over ( with the tramp in place...)

Yes, that is an excellent video. I even had several comments, some similar to comments here. I had pretty much forgotten about it as I was preparing for a 100-mile kayak trip w/ 6 others along coastal FL in 10 days (and with my memory....) I did suggest you try it in more realistic conditions--I believe you had one tramp wrapped on the front aka, the sail was furled, flatwater conditions w/ no wind--fine for a first try. And, it is an excellent video that all of us on this tread should checkout.

Keith

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2015 AI 2, 2014 Tandem

"Any intelligent fool can make things bigger and more complex ... It takes a touch of genius and a lot of courage to move in the opposite direction." A. Einstein

"Less is more" Anon

In regards to the AI being more prone to tip in heavy winds with the trampolines on, I hear what you are saying and I had the same concerns. However, after experimenting with this for a little while, I now never go out in heavy winds without the tramps on.

The only time that I leave the tramps off is in lighter winds. What I've found is that if you sail the AI like a regular sailboat in the higher winds (by moving my rear end out on the high side tramp and keeping my feet in the main hull) I feel much safer in the higher winds as I am able to counter the force of the wind with my body weight. It means that I don't have to furl the sail in nearly as early as I would have to if I was to sail with no tramps and remain in the cockpit of the boat.

Their is certainly a risk of air getting under the tramps if you remain in the middle, but I have yet to get in a situation where I can't get out on them long before it becomes a problem.

Sailing like this isn't for everyone but it's way more fun for me.

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augaug, totally agree. Looking forward to a wee bit of wild sailing once I get my TI, which is just days away.

Preferred sailing position in the TI seems to be the rear if solo, so I'm busy thinking of how I could possibly extend the tramps aft... ?

But if I was to be honest, I'd have to 'fess up to thinking also about hiking straps and trapezes... heh-heh.

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Cheers, Max ● TI: the "Yella Terra" ● Website: www.MadYakker.com ● YouTube: madyakkermax

Holger, thanks so much for doing this.
Yakass -mahalo for posting your crazy mate's test.
Keith, thanks for the "real world" analysis.

It's comforting to know that once the mast hits the water, the boat will roll slowly into a full turtle, giving you some time to clear the tramps and lines. However, what's really interesting is that the Hobie AI manual does cover righting the boat but advises the reverse of Holger's technique. (Collapsing one Aka, standing on the hull and pulling out the submerged/extended Aka).

With or without tramps, I think the Aussies hit on the right procedure.

If I Huli, it's likely to be in a surf zone (or open water swells) with the sail cleated, tramps on and daggerboard deployed. Probably not a simple Aka collapse.

I get the feeling surf is really going to complicate things. Lifting from the windward/ocean side may not be an option, since the waves will want to roll the hull back over as you slowly raise it. They would also tend to keep the hull turned sideways to the waves.

Rather than fight the wind and whitewater, it may be better to let them roll the boat for you.

What do you think of this surf recovery?
1. Release your safety harness/surfleash
2. Radio/yell for help
3. Unclip the windward/seaward tramp
4. Collapse the windward/seaward Aka
5. Uncleat the sheet and reverse it through the cleat, if you can
6. Pull the daggerboard to a fully extended position
7. Swim AROUND the hull to the leeward tramp
8. Step onto the leeward tramp and concentrate your leverage onto the forward Aka (closest to the mast) using the daggerboard for a grip.
9. Say your prayers and be alert as the sail and lines emerge from the water. Anything can happen here.
10. Success! But the collapsed Aka will now be on your side (leeward) and the sail will be trying to catch wind. Not good. Turn the boat into the wind/waves and extend/lock the Aka ASAP!
11. Jump onboard and peddle/sail to a safe area.
12. As you reattach or wrap that loose tramp, take inventory of all the promises you made over the last few minutes.

And while we're at it- would not a "Wave" style mastfloat be a useful feature on the AI - and particularly the TI? Raising a tandem by yourself in sloppy seas might not be practical without straps or floats assisting.

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The Wind Is Your Friend...

When we are on a coastal trip we only use one tramp on the leeward side, but leave the windward one rolled up. We often have high, steep & choppy seas around here, so sitting out on the tramp is not really an option. I came several times close to tipping the AI in high wind and wave conditions. If the sail is furled or not, does not make a difference for rolling, as long as the sheetline is released.
In high wind conditions or surf, I always have the sheetline in my hand, so I can release it right away. If I'd flip over, I have to collapse one side, and am ready to roll it back up.

That crazy guy in the video is actually me. :lol

The AI in the video rolled so slow because the tramp is still in place, and acts like a big parachute in the water. Without the tramp it would roll much, much faster. But I did it that way to proofe the point that it is possible to roll with the tramp in place.

Chekika:
'Training rolling in more realistic situation': Go for it and show us!
I know that I can roll it back up, but living in an area with high seas and surf, and a LARGE population of big toothy critters, I am not willing to risk my gear and health to test in 2m+ swell if I don't have to. Mind you, we kayakfish from the AI and got lots of rods and gear on the AI.
So grab a camera and show us..

Thanks for the advice. It's easy enuff to unclip both tramps, if I needed to speed things up.

If there was no impending doom, I think I would just try turning it with both Akas out and both tramps in place. When the wind or waves did catch the tramp, it would help the flip. Then you won't have to struggle with the folding outriggers in the waves or risk a second hullivation.

Crazy - but not THAT crazy, eh?

Cheers!

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The Wind Is Your Friend...

I can't speak about the TI, but I don't think the AI would need this type of float. The Wave is much more prone to tipping, and once it's tipped, it has a permanent wide base which would make it very difficult to right. The AI is extremely unlikely to turn over, and if it does turtle, you can collapse ama's to make it much easier to right (by narrowing the base, the boat is much easier to right) It would seem like overkill on an AI. There are not many people on this forum who have capsized or turtled the AI unintentionally, and if there were people who have done it, this forum would be the place to find them! Although it can and does happen, it just doesn't happen often enough to warrant a mast float of any kind.

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so i weigh about 140 lbs right now and i am curious if i could do what the guy in the video did to right my TI?? i really don't want to practice it but just hope that if it ever happened i could undo one tramp and collapse that side ama/aka and then stand on the other side and try to right it like the video. thanks for the instructional video,, i now feel a little more confident about that.

i actually have a 15 lb weight tied to a 35 ft rope that sits on top in my back netting that would prolly fall out and act as an anchor while i was trying to right it, unless the water was deeper than this not sure if this would help or hurt??

Hollgi said:

I'm really too old for this stuff. I'm relying on you young fellows to check things out. About 5 yrs ago when we were kayaking Glacier Bay in Alaska, with 37-39 deg F water, my wife asked a ranger what we should do if we capsize. His answer: "don't capsize." That is my philosophy regarding sailing an AI.

Thanks for the comment about only using a single tramp on the leeward side in rough conditions--that makes sense.

I do think simply falling off your AI/TI is more likely than capsizing. So, I am very thankful that Nohuhu did act on my request and see what happened when he talked a passenger into throwing himself off his AI tramps while leashed to the aka. And, I really appreciate that. I'll buy Nohuhu dinner if he ever comes to SFL.

Keith

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2015 AI 2, 2014 Tandem

"Any intelligent fool can make things bigger and more complex ... It takes a touch of genius and a lot of courage to move in the opposite direction." A. Einstein

"Less is more" Anon