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PostPosted: Fri Jun 03, 2016 3:23 pm 
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is hobie the only brand kayak with foot paddles? it seems that every kayak i've looked at doesn't have anything similar to mirage drive


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 03, 2016 4:43 pm 
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There is one other brand called Native that has peddles and a propeller under the boat. According to their literature they are way better than Hobies, and have reverse.
Give me a million bucks and one of those Native boats, and I might consider switching, on second thought I'll keep my Hobie.
FE


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 03, 2016 10:04 pm 
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Pedaling kayaks and boats are dominated by Hobie -- they sell several times more than than all other pedaling manufacturers combined. This is because the the Mirage Drive is patented and exclusive to Hobie -- there is nothing else on the market like it or that matches its efficiency. Hobie does not license their propulsion system out to any other manufacturer. There are over 1/2 dozen other small boat manufacturers that use a foot powered propeller based cycle drive very similar to a bicycle. The most successful one currently is the Native Propel "Slayer" series that fusioneng describes above. Based on personal experience, they are more expensive than comparable Hobies, the pedaling mechanism is less reliable, they do not include several built-in features (access hatches, storage pockets, etc.), They do not include auxiliary paddles or paddle holders, they are not AMMA certified for flotation, turning and speed performance is significantly inferior among other things. Their one positive attribute is that they can pedal backwards easily.

Essentially, there is nothing that competes with the Hobie Mirage Drives on the market today -- that's probably why they are so popular. 8)


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 04, 2016 5:21 am 
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When we first moved to Florida in 2007 right near the ocean from the midwest where there wasn't any significant water within 75 mile of where we lived our perspective on things changed. We both love the water and are avid divers. We started out with a 24ft SeaRay ($80k), and kept it in dry storage ($400/month), and found ourselves spending a couple grand a yr on just routine maint. Then to top it off with an 80 gallon fuel tank and marine gas at over $4 dollars a gallon our fuel bill each weekend was often $300-$400 bucks. That was pretty unsustainable. We noticed there are a gazzilian miles of kayak trails in the area with hundreds of kayaks out there every weekend. So we sold the boat and took up kayaking, that changed our lives....
We started out renting sit inside paddle kayaks but didn't feel safe going more than a few hundred feet from shore and would return a couple hrs later with rubber arms and exhausted only traveling a couple miles at best. Just looking at a map it's pretty easy to see the Tampa bay area is huge and we were only seeing 1% of what's out there.
As en Engineer myself I began researching what was available out there and discovered Hobie.
We noticed when we moved here that there is a kayak sitting in every other back yard down here with most in obvious disrepair just rotting in the back yard. Looking on Craigs list you can easily pick up a well used and abused one for $50 bucks, or you can go to Walmart and pick one up for $300 bucks brand new.
I think it's human nature, people have great intentions but kayaks end up like treadmills, people buy them with the best intentions use them twice, then they just sit for years unused.
As an Engineer I researched kayaks quite a bit and discovered that most of the people we encountered and were clearly enjoying the sport and were obviously hooked on kayaking owned Hobies, when you talked to them they describe how much they like them and how just owning a Hobie has changed their life, 'what we now call the Hobie life'.
We have now owned 7 Hobies and go out pretty much every weekend and have the time of our lives. With the Mirage drives and a Hobie sail kit our range is ten to twenty times further than we ever could have hoped for with the cheap rental kayaks that were exhausting to operate.
We finally ended up with a Hobie Tandem Island kayak and there is nothing we did with our powerboat that we can't do with our Island (TI). It is now our family boat and we use it for anything and everything we can dream up and have an absolute blast doing it pretty much every weekend. We are still going strong almost ten years later, and there is no kayak in our back yard just rotting away.
Just so you know a 3 yr old Cheapo kayak you paid $300-$500 bucks for you can typically pick up on Craigs list for under $50 bucks (around here anyway, and there are gazzilians available sitting in back yards unused.
We have a 2012 TI that cost us about $5000 bucks new, with literally thousands of miles on it (well used), I have no plans to sell mine because it's still going strong and there is nothing wrong with it beyond a few scratches. You would have to pry the pedals off my dead feet to get it from me, and even at that I doubt I would let it go for under $4500 bucks as is. In other words Hobies hold their value better than anything else out there and if you are lucky enough to find a used one for less than almost new price on Craigslist jump on it. However buyer beware a lot of people try to pawn off their leaky and cracked boats on Craigslist (a cracked hull has no value and cannot be repaired (just FYI), just make sure anything you pick up used you inspect carefully and do a real water test, if the hull leaks run away as fast as possible (you are being scammed).
Hope this helps
FE
Edit:
Actually most Hobie dealers have monthly demo days where you can actually try out many kayaks (all brands typically), and you can talk with experts who help guide you to the best selection that fits your lifestyle and needs. That's what we did. Obviously here in Florida near the ocean there are a lot of kayaks available of all different types, and the dealers are pretty big and really expert at what they do. We bought ours at Economy Tackle in Sarasota Fl and are extremely satisfied. Not sure I would buy a Hobie mailorder to avoid sales tax, you really need the support and advise from local dealers in my opinion. Hobie controls their pricing so you won't find anything discounted, If you do see something heavily discounted, there may be something wrong.
I'm just trying to be helpful, talking with other experienced kayakers always helps, there are tons of kayak meetup groups out there.


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 05, 2016 8:11 am 
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Another major kayak manufacturer is about to release a pedal kayak (fall 2016??). Only heard rumors, nothing official yet, but they are major players in the kayak industry so it will be interesting to see what they come up with.


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 06, 2016 2:24 pm 
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Roadrunner wrote:
Pedaling kayaks and boats are dominated by Hobie -- they sell several times more than than all other pedaling manufacturers combined. This is because the the Mirage Drive is patented and exclusive to Hobie -- there is nothing else on the market like it or that matches its efficiency. Hobie does not license their propulsion system out to any other manufacturer. There are over 1/2 dozen other small boat manufacturers that use a foot powered propeller based cycle drive very similar to a bicycle. The most successful one currently is the Native Propel "Slayer" series that fusioneng describes above. Based on personal experience, they are more expensive than comparable Hobies, the pedaling mechanism is less reliable, they do not include several built-in features (access hatches, storage pockets, etc.), They do not include auxiliary paddles or paddle holders, they are not AMMA certified for flotation, turning and speed performance is significantly inferior among other things. Their one positive attribute is that they can pedal backwards easily.

Essentially, there is nothing that competes with the Hobie Mirage Drives on the market today -- that's probably why they are so popular. 8)


Hobie has reverse too::: take the drive out and turn it around and then you have reverse as long as you want to go BACKWARDS... If you want to go forward you will need to reverse the mirage drive again... Then you will be going forward again... It is that easy...


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 06, 2016 3:04 pm 
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Location: Orange Beach, AL
My Outback has reverse. It's the same system as my paddle kayak. I pop the paddle from the side, give it a few reverse strokes, return the paddle, go on my way.

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Duncan


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 06, 2016 3:24 pm 
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I made a short ping pong type paddle and keep it beside my seat, quick and easy to use for reverse, simpler and faster than unshipping the paddle on my rev11


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 06, 2016 3:36 pm 
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Location: Sarasota,Key West FL
Yea my honda engines have reverse too, except you have to spin the engine around backwards, then you can't reach the throttle at all, dumbest thing ever.
Actually with our TI when we are diving and want to set anchor just off giant rocky shores, it gets really hairy with no reverse especially with breakers. The TI is not a close quarters type of boat (just sayin).
What we do is set one mirage drive set to forward and the other set backwards, we have really good control of the boat. This also works well in big harbors and marinas with lots of slips and turns, with careful use of the paddle and mirage drives I can spin on a dime. However the rudder while in reverse (with a mirage drive mounted backwards) is kind of hard to control. We use the brail method in crowded harbors.
FE


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 08, 2016 5:51 am 
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Interesting subject, reading got me looking for other solutions out there, their appears not to be much out there.

Here is an interesting article (interesting to me because this idiot is a real chump, who doesn't know what he is talking about, or more likely is super biased because he is pushing his own junk). I've owned both paddle yaks and Hobies, I personally can go 4 times further expending less energy with my Hobies vs recreational paddle yaks (not including expensive pro level sea kayaks, and high end surfski's and Proa's but those are different animals and are typically way more expensive), it's pretty important to compare apples to apples on this stuff. Comparing a $1800 dollar revo 13 to a $10k 24 ft long Proa that weighs 30 lbs simply isn't fair. ( http://www.kamanucomposites.com/)
http://wavewalk.com/blog/2010/10/11/pad ... ng-kayaks/

Here is another article comparing Hobie revo 11 to Native mariner 10 (at least this guy is trying to be honest and forthright).

As an Engineer and inventor myself, I am always very frustrated at what is available out there, not just in kayaks, but pretty much everything. Fresh and new ideas 'that are actually good', are pretty hard to come by. Everyone keeps designing around the same old stuff over and over again (example trolling motors, small outboards), all different names, but basically the exact same design, all designed to push that one 15 yr old 3000 lb 16 ft fishing boat that's left out there..... the whole industry is caught in a sad time warp.
Hobie Mirage design is the only new design in the last 20 yrs, everything else is just copying all the same old stuff over and over again.
Anyone if they think it through can come up with a new design that actually works, the world is waiting for you.
FE


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 09, 2016 11:15 am 
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fusioneng wrote:
Interesting subject, reading got me looking for other solutions out there, their appears not to be much out there.
There was a blossoming of human powered vehicles including boats in the late 1990's and several manufacturers emerged. Here is a somewhat dated listing to give you an idea of the rather large variety of products. Most are defunct today or what one might describe as "backyard boats" where their manufacturing facility is in their back yard.
http://www.humanpoweredboats.com/Links/ ... turers.htm

When looking this stuff over, keep in mind the timeless advice "caveat emptor". For instance, the Cadence -- "fastest on the planet", Wavewalker -- "fastest in the world", Waterbike, -- "worlds best seller", the Native Slayer 13 Propel -- "4.2 MPH all day" and other undocumented claims that are a bunch of baloney, although not necessarily untrue if you get the right tide or are headed downstream in a fast moving river.

I'm a huge Hobie fan, but not without good reason. A former member of the International Watercraft Association, I have also owned or demonstrated Native Propel (2), Seacycle, Wavewalker (Hydrocycles), Explorer (Hydrobike) and even Sun Dolphin, not to mention a couple of custom prop kayaks. So in a larger sense I am a fan of pedal power in general. While certainly not an expert in the field, IMO there is nothing that competes with the Mirage Drive for speed, efficiency and comfort -- everything else I've seen so far is really just a novelty. 8)


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 09, 2016 12:33 pm 
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fusioneng wrote:
Here is another article comparing Hobie revo 11 to Native mariner 10 (at least this guy is trying to be honest and forthright).
I haven't see this comparison, but looking at a 2016 Slayer 13 Propel vs 2015 Hobie Outback, (very close in size and purpose) here are some very specific results (Lake Hodges, GPS and HRM (heart rate monitor -- used as a measure of work output), one hour timed runs, conditions as noted):

Hobie Outback
1. 4.54 miles, 117 BPM (beats per minute), no current, calm conditions, Turbofins
2. 4.46 miles, 117 BPM, no current, light wind and chop both directions, Turbofins
3. 4.47 miles, -- BPM, no current, very light wind both directions, Turbofins

4. 4.04 miles. 111 BPM, no current, very light wind both directions, ST Fins

Native Slayer
1. 3.94 miles, 119 BPM, no current, calm
2. 3.92 miles, 115 BPM, no current, calm
3. 3.81 miles, 111 BPM, no current, calm

Conclusions:
1. The Outback (with Turbos) runs about .6 MPH faster than the Slayer under very similar water conditions and work output. The difference is consistent.
2. The Outback (with ST fins) runs about .2 MPH faster than the Slayer
Note -- the Slayer is operating with the following factory prop in all runs: "The Native Watercraft Propel Easy Cruz Propeller is a replacement high efficiency propeller. It optimizes pitch and rake adjustments to give the propel drive unit a 50% increase in efficiency while maintaining the same top end speed the Propel Drive is revered for."
3. The Slayer is not a match for the Outback for speed under any fin or propeller condition. With Turbofins, the Slayer is slower than all hardshell Hobie Mirage Drive models.
4. The Slayer 13 fails to meet its advertised speed as quoted on the Native website for one hour, not to mention all day in an optimal no current water environment:
"So, how fast does it go? With relaxed pedaling you can cover 4.2 miles per hour all day"

This is the only documented comparison that I've seen. 8)


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 09, 2016 1:38 pm 
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Sound advice from Fusioneng.

My $0.02 - there is nothing out there that will be better than a Hobie - and speed is not the metric you need to consider unless you intend to use your kayak for drag racing: what you need to consider is "how easy is it to propel my boat at a pace that I can keep up for a reasonably long period of time in all conditions". That metric will establish how well your kayak will work as a cruising boat - which is what most people want them for. I can attest to the fact that the Hobie mirage drive allows you to cruise extensively (compared to paddle kayaks) at a reasonable pace that won't break you or the kayak, in almost any conditions of wind and water that you would want to go out in - and your cruising speed will be higher in my experience than almost any other kayak out there (the exception would be those really long thin surf skis in the hands of a competitive paddler). The further you go on your Hobie, the greater your advantage over a paddler will be because your legs are so much stronger than your arms and the mirage drive is so efficient.

There are other propellor based pedal kayaks (I say "other" because the Mirage drive is basically two counter rotating reciprocating propellors that only travel a partial arc) out there but I cannot believe that they will have many or any significant advantages over a Hobie - sure, you may find one that goes a bit faster on paper (or not), and you may find one that allows you to back up (what a paddle is for if you have a Mirage drive), but I seriously doubt that you will find one that is so versatile, functional, robust and widely owned/enjoyed as a Hobie mirage drive kayak.


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 11, 2016 9:08 pm 
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stobbo wrote:
Sound advice from Fusioneng.

My $0.02 - there is nothing out there that will be better than a Hobie - and speed is not the metric you need to consider unless you intend to use your kayak for drag racing: what you need to consider is "how easy is it to propel my boat at a pace that I can keep up for a reasonably long period of time in all conditions".
IMO speed is always a metric worth considering and it's important to have accurate info, not undocumented off the cuff BS.

Most who aren't racers don't think about speed normally but it sure comes in handy in the course if unanticipated sudden conditions what compel a person to want to get off the water ASAP. Examples -- lightning, sudden changes in wind and chop, waterspouts, fog bank, secondary effects of tides and currents (rapid basin drainage, dangerous channel re-entry, etc. etc.). These things don't happen often, but when they do (a lot of this varies by locality), speed is of the essence. There are other less urgent situations where speed translates to time to reach your fishing grounds, keeping up in a group without killing yourself, etc.

Here's an example of a "bad hair day" caused by a local "Santa Ana" wind that took about 15 minutes to develop, caught us by surprise 2.5 miles downwind of our launch point, downed power poles, trees, etc. It was nice to have a "fast" boat that could pull us through that mess before it got any worse (which it did).
Image
8)


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