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PostPosted: Wed Sep 16, 2015 9:11 am 
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All right guys. I hate it, and admit, that I am bad at it. I am usually at the front of the pack in winds 10 Knots plus on the 18 and 20 but when the wind drops to 5 knots I can be dead last. (I know total crew weight is important but let's eliminate this as a factor here).

Let's discuss the tricks here.

Sail shape, Batten tension, mast rotation, dagger and rudder controls.

I will begin with sailing habits... (remember 5 knots or less)

Going up wind I find it beneficial to not point to high and keep the crew as still and forward as possible(on leeward side). Windward dagger half way up and rudder up. Main slightly eased and jib tight to provide as much flow to the back of the main sail as possible. Down haul flat but not crushed.

Downwind. All blades up except leeward rudder. Weight forward. Traveler out to the inside of leeward hull and mainsheet out so boom is out 2 feet from cleat. down haul up, rotator out with my foot on it. I tend not to count on any apparent wind so I drive deeper than usual and almost ignore the jib tell tails.

If I know it is going to be a light day then my batten tension will be loose. Diamond wires on my 18 always tight, 20 medium.

Mast rake on the H18 105.25 (ish).

What's everybody eases (successful) habits?

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H18 '85
H18 '89 "Knotty Passion"
H20 '96 "20/20 Vision"
Fleet 259 Central Coast California


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 16, 2015 12:03 pm 
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Location: Jersey Shore
Delicate motion both moving on the boat and in sail handling and steering.

Head on a swivel looking over the course for changes in windspeed.

Feel the boat, keep it in the groove, keep it moving at all costs. This is especially tough if there's chop. If you're moving 1 knot and the competition is moving 1/2 knot, this is huge - you are going twice as fast as everyone else.

Upwind, all boards down (maybe kick the windward rudder). Downhaul only enough to remove all or most of the wrinkles. Telltails in the upper panels of the mainsail are crucial to determining if you're oversheeted. Mainsheet ratchet switched off. Make sure the crew knows where they are expected to be (i.e., sitting on the low hull, then if a puff comes, move up to the mast, then up to the windward hull, then trap out, etc.). Weight centered over front crossbar. Resist the temptation to crawl all the way out on the bow - you can not steer effectively with the bow under water and the rudders 1/2 out of the water.

Downwind, mainsheet loose and traveled out to inside of hull (more or less, really not that critical). Jib being held out by the crew, telltails kept flowing at all costs. A piece of VCR casette ribbon taped to the back of the Telocat is more sensitive than the Telocat. Crew weight at front crossbar. Apparant wind angle about 100-110 degrees. Mast rotation, either use a positive mast rotator or forget about it. You can't look around if you're stuck with your foot on the boom. A slightly looser rig will allow the mast to rotate easier.

Diamond wires, mast rake, batten tension are kept the same as all other conditions.

sm


Last edited by srm on Wed Sep 16, 2015 1:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 16, 2015 12:11 pm 
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All of that sounds basically correct. However the mechanics are only part of the story.

At what point are you in last place. At the start? At the first mark? At the down wind mark?

You start in the lead and then go backwards from there?

In light air I find that footing does not pay as much dividend as going high. While you may start out with main a little eased as you pick up speed I bring the main back in tight, which points the boat higher. In light air once you have your boat up to speed, doing anything that kills speed is bad. So less tacking than "normal". Less jibing than "normal". More long term planning, less everything else. If you slow down, let main back out a little and try to gather speed again, rinse and repeat.

Down wind I never "ignore" apparent wind.

So where specifically do you think you are "slower" than your competition?


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 16, 2015 3:10 pm 
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Kaos wrote:
You start in the lead and then go backwards from there?


I get pretty good if not excellent starts most of the time. In light wind I would probably make the A mark in the middle of the pack and then struggle the balance of the race. Transitions may be an issue as far as getting to speed again....

Kaos wrote:
In light air I find that footing does not pay as much dividend as going high.


This is counter intuitive to me. I am a footer by habit for sure but I would more than likely go searching for speed "down" for sure in light breeze.

srm wrote:
telltails kept flowing at all costs


Agreed.........I think. seems to me diminishing returns at some point. I've seen some go dead down wind in light breeze and whoop me. (risky I know)

srm wrote:
Upwind, all boards down (maybe kick the windward rudder).


The 18 is known for haven't excessive dagger surface area as compared to modern designs. Hmmmmmm

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H18 '85
H18 '89 "Knotty Passion"
H20 '96 "20/20 Vision"
Fleet 259 Central Coast California


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 16, 2015 5:37 pm 
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wscotterwin wrote:
The 18 is known for haven't excessive dagger surface area as compared to modern designs. Hmmmmmm


Not something I would personally tend to worry about. We have dabbled with pulling the board up, but it's really not something I think is putting the fast guys at the front of the fleet. Having the board up can also get in the way of where you want to sit or if you need to be going in and out on the trap. It is just another distraction. The only time I tend to pull the board upwind is if I'm on the starboard layline nearing the mark and I know I'm going to make it. If I'm sitting right there I would pull it early so it's one less thing to deal with during the rounding.

sm


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 16, 2015 6:57 pm 
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srm wrote:
wscotterwin wrote:
The 18 is known for haven't excessive dagger surface area as compared to modern designs. Hmmmmmm


Not something I would personally tend to worry about. We have dabbled with pulling the board up, but it's really not something I think is putting the fast guys at the front of the fleet. Having the board up can also get in the way of where you want to sit or if you need to be going in and out on the trap. It is just another distraction. The only time I tend to pull the board upwind is if I'm on the starboard layline nearing the mark and I know I'm going to make it. If I'm sitting right there I would pull it early so it's one less thing to deal with during the rounding.

sm


Having done some of the whooping... :lol:

Pinching or footing is bad... find the optimal spot. Delicate movement is key to this, as a crew jumping down to the other side will screw you for a dozen boat lengths worth of speed(your distance traveled after movement, not a loss of position)

Rig is typically tight, but I'm hoping for breeze...

Battens are tight... but not too tight, shape is good, but not so much that you have to fight to bring the sail over.

Downhaul just tight enough to get the wrinkles out.

Windward board up, if everything else is going well, it seems like it's good for 1 boat length per leg at that point, I'll grab it with one hand as I'm sitting next to it and pull it up if possible, if not... then forget it.

Diamonds are always tight.

Rake is 105.5

Really light air, I'll just have one rudder down, and leave it down... and pay really close attention up ahead. switching the rudders is slow, and in light air, the windward rudder is usually enough. (note: one rudder has less drag, but also makes helm less responsive, which in light air is good in my mind, same for going down wind, less chance to jerk the tiller and swerve.)

Boards are marked for minimal hole opening, so they are always someone in, but no splash up from the back of the dagger well.


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 17, 2015 5:51 am 
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Scott,

The folks who are beating you to A-mark, are they sailing higher or lower than you?

Tom is right about finding the optimum angle (that is what we are always trying to do).

I find that the optimum angle tends to be higher with less wind and lower with more wind. Similar to downwind. Going downwind in light air I think it works out better to sail deeper than when you have more wind. You are able to generate more apparent wind as the wind picks up. In very light wind, you can't really generate apparent wind. Same for upwind. In medium breeze you can generate more apparent wind by footing off. In very light wind, you can't generate apparent wind, no matter how deep you foot. Better to go for a higher angle at that point. How high you can go before stalling is greatly affected by sea state (and, I think, crew/boat weight). If it's choppy (or you are heavy), you have to point a little lower. I like a little flatter sail in really light wind, so very light batten tension.

Jim


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 17, 2015 10:09 am 
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Upwind I think I am about Avg in these winds. Just not as good as the Zimmers and Pedricks of this world.
Seems there is a consensus that pointing higher going to the A mark is better than footing due to lack of apparent wind opportunity. Although, any slight loss of inside tell tail would be an immediate speed killer. Down haul down snug but not tight. and daggers remain down with a possibility of the windward rudder up. On the H20 the Jib Halyard adjustment would have to be eased as well I think. If to tight it radically changes the leading edge of the sail.

Flat sail???? Hmm, what does that mean? Not crushed main sheet I think. I would think slightly eased.....

Down wind is for sure the most difficult.

I know there was one race that lease three of us on this thread were at. (Not sure about SRM) Mohave 2012 day 3 (Wednesday).

If you will recall we stared that race and it was called because of time. Mark Lewis had been killing everybody except this race. The guy that was in the lead (I can't remember who) by a country mile had both rudders up because of rudder failures. He sailed the boat with just the sails. :o He almost lapped me and others. This reminds me of something John Holmberg told me (Winner of the H20 NACS 2015). After watching many of us, he felt we all used way too much rudder and didn't follow the sails enough. Hmmmmm. :?

Putting 2+2 together= My thought is that I probably go seeking wind/speed to much and stall the boat due to excessive helm. I think some practice in non-racing situations is in order to prove this his point. Maybe with no rudders......

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H18 '85
H18 '89 "Knotty Passion"
H20 '96 "20/20 Vision"
Fleet 259 Central Coast California


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 17, 2015 12:58 pm 
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I agree with most of the trim comments made.
plenty of draft in sails, especially if you have any sort of chop you need power to get through.

really the most important thing is to keep moving as fast as you can achieve. gentle movements around the boat to keep flow attached. tack (or gybe) on the shifts as soon as they happen or you notice them, making smooth transitions to maintain speed. keep the sterns out of the water to reduce drag. obviously try to avoid covering situations, as you want to maintain clear air as much as possible.

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'88 H18SE Arís


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 18, 2015 6:21 am 
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wscotterwin wrote:
I know there was one race that lease three of us on this thread were at. (Not sure about SRM) Mohave 2012 day 3 (Wednesday).


Yep, we were there..... If I recall we were either in or very near the top 5 when the race was called. Good example of conditions where keeping your head on a swivel, keeping the boat moving, and maintaining concentration are imperative. It's very difficult for anyone to dominate consistently in these conditions, but avoiding tanking is key.

I think success here is much more related to boat handling and keeping your head out of the boat than tuning.

sm


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 18, 2015 9:52 am 
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Good thread with lots of good advice.

We often have 'light wind' conditions, and we try to get into that groove.
The only difference is that I am always on the lookout for a puff, especially if the wind is SW
(usually a lumpy type of wind) and then I can use that to both speed up and head up a bit to make the upwind mark.
The 'head on a swivel' can find that wind and use it.

Downwind we struggle. The only way I can catch the A-Cat or Tornado's is to use my spin (Tiger adaptation). Not Class legal, I know.

I so wanted to do Avila Beach... and like others, we love high wind conditions.

Only four weeks of sailing left.....

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2015 H16, with spin,
SOLD 1989 Hobie SX18 Sail # 1947 "In Theory..."
'Only two things are infinite, the universe, and human stupidity. But I'm not sure about the former.'


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 24, 2015 6:36 am 
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though not on my H18, we had a blast during last night's around the cans race. wind was light at 5-7 kts (at best) and the skipper handed me the helm for the night. loose rig and full sails had us ghost upwind at 4 kts, but the fun was sailing the big 110SM spin down. it was like a dream with a gorgeous sunset as we slid downwind, overtaking boats. we got lucky with wind on our chosen lines.

finally finished a 4+ mile handicap race first ahead of boats we give 50-56 seconds a mile to.

light air tactics work with all manner of sailboats.

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Chris
'88 H18SE Arís


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 24, 2015 9:52 am 
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Good sailing and well done.

Last night was the final session of our Fall Weds night series, similar wind but not similar results.
The T's and F18's beat me by 20 - 50 seconds on a shortened course.
At this time of year, we run out of daylight, 1st race at 6 pm, 2nd at 6.40, and that race was shortened.
Now we switch to Frostbite, this Saturday is first of three with a 1.30 start.

Time to think of winter sailing and Trade Winds:
Anyone know of folks in the Caribbean who rent anything other than Wave's or Getaway's?
Some places in Cuba and Antigua have the Hobie 15.....

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2015 H16, with spin,
SOLD 1989 Hobie SX18 Sail # 1947 "In Theory..."
'Only two things are infinite, the universe, and human stupidity. But I'm not sure about the former.'


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