21SE spinnaker pole attachment

After reading this post from 2016 I'm trying to find this part or available equivalent:



Here's a link to my Hobie gallery that as a few photos of my current spin pole setup. It's a trentec with 2 lines and no snuffer.



If anyone cares to share any advice or suggestions for making this more modern, I would love to hear about it. I'm looking at the nacra hoop and sock, which I'll use if I upgrade from the doyle asymm I've got now. I'll have to figure out the rigging if I go that route. My intent is to buy a flat-top main from chip and upgrade the chute at the same time. I'm not racing anyone but the rental pontoon boats, I just have kids that love to trap out and sail fast.

This trentec pole is set up with guys that allow the pole to swing left or right. Is there any benefit to this or should I just make a dyneema bridle and abandon the spin pole guy lines.






Thanks!
AP
postscript:
if anyone has a parts boat, I'm looking for a 21se mast head casting (comptip) and the vertical dolphin striker bolt

I had Randy Smyth design a top down furling spinnaker for my 21Se that is the "Cat's Meow"...........

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Bill 404 21SE

I sliced an aluminum cube in half after I'd drilled a hole the size of the dolphin striker. I'm using a broken windsurf mast for a pole that's longer than the stock pole. The spinnaker pole uses a windsurfing hourglass universal joint and mast foot to attach it to the aluminum block. The block has four through bolts to hold it to the striker.

On the back side is the same sort of setup for a righting pole, only I'm using an original Windsurfer all metal universal joint and stronger windsurf mast section. I've never used the righting pole, never having capsized the 21.

I made that setup in 1988. A friend with another 21 racing Prosail brought me the aluminum blocks to make one for him and me.

Aaron, where did you get those tramps? I like them.

I have a kite bag on each side of the front of the tramp. The main part is Sunbrella with mesh at the back. The front opening is a plastic rod half hoop that opens back. Crew gathers kite between kneeling legs, and slams the loop front of the bags back closed. A shockcord comes up through grommets in the tramp, and is snapped over the front half of the hoop to keep it closed. Pulling the spinnaker out opens them. No one made a snuffer back then that worked good, and we've never used any other system on the 21.

The two bags allowed launching or retrieving on either side, but if Prosail had continued for another year we were going to carry two different types of spinnakers. One to go low, and one to go high.

I see no need to even think about swinging the pole.

Ben at Salt City made them for me. I've since added a third trapeze grommet and an additional grommet in the aft corners for better tensioning between the end of the crossbar slot and the corner grommets.

How long is the spi pole you guys are using? I just bought a 2" x 144" x .049" inch extrusion from Alro metals in Jacksonville, but I'm wishing I had gone to 14' instead. The Trentec is/was 10'

Chip at Whirlwind is building me a more modern design of "spinnaker" after he finishes my laminate square-top main/jib, so I'm now also interested in how I should re-rig the spi sheeting hardware. I need it inboard of the wings I think, so any opinions are appreciated.

While I'm at it with the more modern sails, I've been considering modifying the jib hardware move them inboard to resemble the 4 way adjustable jib sheets of the H-20. My port shroud failed dramatically a couple weeks ago, so I'm spending a lought of money and thought energy while waiting for salty dog to manufacture new shrouds/bridles.

AP

I've been trying the 4-way on my 21SE and it does help bringing the clew in towards the center when working upwind. Off the wind, I found that a proper barber hauler system for the jib REALLY helps - if you're not running a spinnaker.

On the 4-way, I bought the H20 blocks used and added them. It was a "meh" for operations as the inter-connecting line that in-hauls kept getting hung up in the blocks on each side. But, I was using dynema single braid so that may have allowed it to wedge between the sheave and the side of the block. It DOES work, however.

I'd still like to know how to get these big old boats to point. I mean, even with weight forward and everything in tight I'm still a full 15-20 degrees off the crowd...yuck. If I can't figure that out, may just have to use the boat for long range events and pleasure only.

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ChuckC
H21SE- 408

The 21 started magically pointing for me when i really tightened the boat up.

First, i added a bead of black 5200 at the crossbar sleeve joint. This keeps water out and stiffened up the joint. Earler Silicone beads would break loose from the movement. Strongly recommend.

Next, I retensioned the new tramp, i went all out with vice grips, and my hands were sore for 3 days. It was clear i needed the extra tensioning grommets at the rear extensibles so added them in situ. Strongly recommend.

After that, i rebuilt the rudders crossbars to take the slop out and set the toe in. This is important. I always use rigging tape to build a seat for the leading edge in the front of the lower gudgeon.

Finally on rig tension, i lashed the traveler to the stops and sheeted hard. That was not nearly enough on such a beam with such a short traveller. I then used 200 pounds on the trap wire to tension the shrouds.

Back on the water after all 4, the boat felt like a tight sled instead two dolphins swimming playfully next to each other. There is no easily perceptible movement between the hulls. Fact is, these boats shouldn't have been built with the extending beam. There are plenty of big Freeman cats being pulled around here without wide load permits, the idea of narrowing a 21se seems ludicrous for me! Trailers fine at modern interstate speeds (even bumped 80 once) at full width.

No need to complicate the jig sheet hardware. I used Harken big swivel 205 in front of the tracks, and the location never got moved. It allows easy control of the jib from anywhere on the boat. As far as I know, I'm the only one that did that.

I don't see any need to move the spinnaker sheet turning block inboard either. Mine are mounted right at the outboard rear end of the wings. So my 110 pound Wife could handle the sheet, we have remote controls on ratchet blocks back there, and sometimes kept the front turning block ratchet on too. Lines to a lever on the rear rathchet are available under the middle inside of the wings. You can release or set the rear ratchet from the windward wing. In light air, with the front ratchet off, it makes jibing very easy because the sheet flows so freely.

As far as pole length, I will have to measure. It is 2' longer than stock though. I'm afraid longer than that and you will start to get lee helm downwind.

It's not going to point but so great with the poor centerboard design. Footing is almost always faster upwind. The harder it blows, the lower you have to foot. Speed makes up for the extra distance traveled. You have to keep flow on the centerboards. Stalling the boards, which causes leeway, or adding a sideways factor, is slow.

I remembered the swivel cam location incorrectly. It's been 30 years since we sailed that boat. I went out and looked, and the Harken 205 large swivel is mounted forward of, and in line with the track. The stock jib block is still in the track. The sheet went through the block in the track forward to the swivel. I took a picture and will see if I can post it here.

Sorry, I forgot how to post pictures here.

Would love to see that pic, Tom - Yeah, I get it about footing off and have done that but With the 4-way adjuster I can and do get the jib to pull in tighter, closing off the slot more in lighter air but also allowing me to point up some.

And, yes - you've got to bury those bows in to get it point a touch better. If not, it worsens the problem. I'd just be happy to get it to perform at it's theoretical SCHRS handicap, which it doesn't get even close to. Reach and downwind? Heck yes! Upwind, I loose the battle decidedly. And how the heck did this boat get and retain a SCHRS handicap of 0.98 to 1.0? Hate being scratch boat...

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ChuckC
H21SE- 408

email me and I'll send the picture. email address in my profile

email sent.

So, I have really enjoyed adding barber haulers on my jib for downwind work, except I don't like the way it's cleating and uncleating with my makeshift arrangement. That's going to be a simple block with a cleat shackled to each of the taper pin rings. Too floppy and allows the sheet to get tangled and is also hard to uncleat on a gybe. Right now the plan is to switch to a swivel cambase with bullseye mounted to the cross-bar close to the hulls. Seems like this might serve dual duty for spinnaker sheets...maybe.

Anyone else got setup tips for the barber hauler?

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ChuckC
H21SE- 408

Tom,

I'm going to email you as well, would love to see what your spin pole setup looks like/measures to. (I'll be happy to host/post the images if you'd like. I managed a bbcode forum for Glider flying 15-20 years ago, so it's easy enough to get them posted here)

Whirlwind is building a screecher for me and I need to set the pole length ASAP so I we can set the dimensions. I just received my new shrouds and I'll be standing the rig back up today. I've already put down a deposit to have Chip @Whirlwind scale one up the spi from the Tiger.

The longest 2" .049" extrusion I was able to easily acquire was only 12' long. I think was wanting 14', So I'm looking to sleeve a length of the 1.75" OD current pole into the 2". The Snuffer hoop will mount right at/on the transition on the 2" with about 2 extra feet of 1.75 extending beyond

If anyone else ever considers the forward sailing setup versus the NACRA, here is what I just found (Murray's shipped the Forward kit by accident, instead of the NACRA hoop). The Mouth of the forward sailing is smaller, but also very "shallow" and likely would not be appropriate for a 21SE spi

I won't be able to give an exact length. My pole is a carbon fiber broken windsurf mast. I can't find whatever mast base I used in it, so can't do any measuring, but I do remember it totaled 2' longer than the stock one.

I'll see if I can get a picture of the mount for it tomorrow. It's kind of hard to get to because so much stuff is piled all around it in the shed it's been under for over 30 years. We didn't sail that boat but a very few times after the Prosail circuit was canceled, but I never wanted to sell it. It's been under cover for all that time. It still has all the Prosail stickers on the hulls.

A screecher, huh? Very interesting. Why did you choose that for your downwind work? I've been vacillating between some kind of hard luffed genoa/gennaker type thing on a furler and a traditional asym on a snuffer. Thing is, a furler is very tempting for it's ease of use and I've got a couple of extra Harken models sitting in the shop. Just with the age of these designs I don't know what is the best bang for the buck between cost, convenience and performance... ugh.

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ChuckC
H21SE- 408

Chuck, Screecher isn't the right word... I should have just called it a kite. The naming conventions for spinnakers are lost on me but it's a hobie tiger f18 sail scaled up

In case anyone is ever trying to find a spinnaker pole _over_ 12' long, let me share these to options for posterity's sake. I went the aluminum route, since it is only a 1 hour drive to pick it up. I wanted 1.5" to be compatible with the Nacra snuffer hoop.

6063 T52 Aluminum:

comes in 24' lengths,

Fiberglass 2 piece: