Chop and gusts, oh my! Should I worry about tipping our TI?

We just bought a used 2013 Tandem Island and ride it on Muskegon Lake. We took a sailing class last year but are still pretty green, and only had our TI out four or five times so far. Most of the time we've been out in light or lightly gusty winds and have been able to have fun and avoid major chop.

Tonight the wind was gusty from 6 to 11 knots, and coming across the lake crosswise to the channel. This made the lake much more choppy than we were used to, and the boat was rocking and pitching; it wasn't that the waves were really high but more than they were just constant and coming at the boat from different directions. My husband, Robert, eagerly let the sail out to try and get some speed, but sitting in the back I could tell that the boat wasn't responding to the rudder the way we were used to, and the mirage drives weren't as effective.

Robert wanted to experiment with the sail and see if we could get going but we either seemed to luff or when we did catch the wind get pulled pretty much sideways. I was afraid that we would catch a bad combination of a gust and a broadside wave and tip over. The amas seemed to be doing their job and didn't really fully break the surface let alone "get burried" -- but we really weren't getting any speed, either. I was getting knocked about pretty good in the back and fighting with the mainsheet line. I started to get really nervous so I asked him to furl the sail and head back in, even though we hadn't been out very long.

Here's my question: as best as you can tell from what I described, what were the odds that we would have really tipped the boat? I keep reading about sheared aka pins, and worried that if we hit a wave too hard, that might happen. If we had stuck it out and found the right trim, might we have been able to kind of break through that chop with a little speed, or would we have just continued to be tossed about and not really able to get good control of he boat? Was I just being a sissy?

Be frank; I can take it, and I'm here to learn!

Chris "Media1der"

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........~ media1der ~........
............. Chris .............
2013 Hobie Tandem Island
--- Muskegon Yacht Club ---

In my experience, it takes about a 5' wave with a pretty vertical face to flip an AI or TI, and that wave needs to be pretty parallel to the side of the hull. I've also seen a 35mph gust do it if the sail is pulled pretty tight and again coming pretty parallel to the side of the hull. A combination of the two could do it in less of each.

If you cross most waves at angle, 45 degrees is good, you shouldn't have much problems with them.

Start small and work up to larger wind and waves and you will find the boat can handle far more than the captain and crew want to.

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Hobie Island Sailing since 2006

Really, "6-11 knots" is on the lower half of the wind scale for these boats. Zero chance of flipping unless an aka shear pin fails. If you are worried about a shear pin failing, even if you are not, it is a good idea to have some safety lines. I have designed my "keep-out lines." These are shock-absorbing lines which hold the ama out if an aka shear pin should break. Construction of my keep-out lines was discussed on http://www.hobiecat.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=70&t=7276&start=720 Scroll down until you come to “Keep-out lines for my AI 2” Following their construction, I tested them on 2 different occasions. The test was simply to release the aka brace while underway and see if the aka/amas stay out. I did tests of 4, about 6, and about 8 mph. A discussion of these tests can be seen on p49 and p50 of this thread. The tests all worked, i.e., the keep-out lines kept the aka/ama out after the aka brace was released. My hope is that if I ever have another shear pin break in strong winds, I will not capsize.

I suggest you go out in challenging conditions regularly to become comfortable. These boats can handle 16-18 knots--it may not be fun (many people enjoy it), but they can do it. After my capsize last April in winds about 17-18 mph, gusting to 20 or so, I made many modifications to my boat. You can see these at http://www.hobiecat.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=70&p=259164#p259164. BTW, my capsize was probably due to a faulty shear pin which broke.

Keith

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2015 AI 2, 2014 Tandem

"Any intelligent fool can make things bigger and more complex ... It takes a touch of genius and a lot of courage to move in the opposite direction." A. Einstein

"Less is more" Anon

You may just *feel* like it's tipping a lot. It took me a few windy days to really get used to the feeling, and to feel confident that the amas really will keep you upright! The first time I rode in the back seat with a friend along up front I also felt like we were leaning a lot more but realized at some point it was just because I had nothing to either side. When I'm on my own I sit up front and have hakas beside me.

As Keith mentioned, 6-11 knots is at the low end. I rarely go out that low as it's just not as much fun! My preferred range is 12-18 MPH / 10.5-15.5 knots (I never use knots, have to convert!) and have been out as high as 25-28 MPH / 21.7-24 knots. It starts to be more work than fun above 20 MPH winds, but I've never felt any concern about tipping.

I can't really use the full sail in higher winds, at some point it overpowers the rudder and then I wind up just rounding up into the wind. Furl the sail a turn or two and continue on! It's possible to keep easing off the mainsheet to regain rudder control but then I'm losing thrust so might as well furl anyway.

Even at lower speeds furling can sometimes help, with the full sail out as the wind increases the ride is often much more fun (certainly a lot wetter!) but I start to heel so much the downwind ama buries which limits speed. Not to mention any waves hitting the downwind aka. Furling reduces the heeling, which can actually increase speed in some cases or at least just make for a smoother ride.

Edit: Forgot to mention, I've never lost rudder control at the lower wind speeds you listed. If you were, be sure you have the rudder Down line nice and tight and securely cleated. If it's loose at all (and especially if not cleated) the rudder will start to swing back making steering VERY stiff and you won't turn well.

Chris,
Congratulations on purchasing your TI, you WILL get to love it, and quickly gain confidence in sailing it.

First thing is to make copious use of your ability to reduce sail area by partially furling it. This way, you can always set the sail at the right angle, and with just enough area exposed to match the conditions. The sail should not be flogging, which is a sign that the mainsheet has not been pulle in enough (or the TI is pointed too closely into the wind for that sail setting).

Do not be alarmed about the regular mentions her of broken shear pins... in the real world, you are highly unlikely to break one unless you actually run into something like a dock etc. For instance, I have sailed my 2012 TI at least 450 times without breaking one, even in winds exceeding 20 knots.

"Keep out lines" can be added if you really want absolute assurance that an ama will not fold in while sailing. An alternative to Keith's version is to run a stretchy (eg nylon) line from the padeye near the handle on one ama forward to pass through the mast base fitting (but behind the mast), out to the other ama. Simple snapshackles at each end enable you to stow the lines in the front mesh pockets when you do want to fold in an ama.

Enjoy your TI, as these things are probably one of the safest sailboats available, and will patiently await you and your husband, as you both gain esperience and confidence!

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Tony Stott
2012 Tandem Island "SIC EM" with Hobie spinnaker

You all are the best; thanks for the tips - they are welcome and appreciated!

KayakingBob: Your tip to turn 45 degrees to a strong wake was a game changer.

Chekika: Thank you for the video! As long as the waves aren't super choppy and coming at us from multiple angles, I look forward to feeling more comfortable taking on more challenging winds. We're still working out some stupid rookie mistakes. The other day, we almost left the dock but something didn't look right with the sail and I asked Robert to test letting it out all the way. Sure enough, it had somehow come unattached at the top of the mast. It was an easy fix -- on shore! Along those same lines, I believe we have FINALLY figured out which way to furl the sail so that the hook is on the outside when we put it away -- and the furling line is coming off the correct side when we put the mast back on the boat! <<<--- newbies!

RandomJoe: Thanks for the rudder info. There may very well be something going on with our rudder lines -- and we may NOT have had that rudder line cleated properly that day! We have experienced stiff steering, and I suspect that may be what's going on. THANK YOU! And your post makes me want to experience the ride from the front seat. I suspect the view of the amas and the feel of "tipping" really IS a whole lot different from that angle! That could be eye opening both from a learning perspective, but also to show Robert maybe I'm not as big a sissy as he thinks I am!

tonystott: We have a lot to learn about managing the sail. I read a lot, and Robert doesn't, and that puts us sometimes at odds between trying things that I've read NOT to do and him wanting to try everything and see what happens. Knowing that it's hard to really mess up will make it a lot more fun for both of us.

I will say after that experience capsizing the JY in class, I have no desire to repeat that in the middle of our deep water lake without an instructor and rescue boat at hand! Having said that, Robert reminds me that there is regular traffic on Muskegon lake and our jackets will keep us afloat for much longer than we would likely need in the event something really drastic were to happen. He really enjoys bouncing around and trying to push the boat to its limits (at least from his front seat!) I'm coming around, but tend to over-think and will need a bit more trial/error to get to where I'm really confident in the TI - and in our ability to stay out of trouble with it! Every time we take it further out under different conditions and manage to return back to the dock safely increases my desire to explore further and under more challenging conditions.

Thanks for letting me be a part of the discussion!

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........~ media1der ~........
............. Chris .............
2013 Hobie Tandem Island
--- Muskegon Yacht Club ---

Me too - my AI is supposed to arrive next week and I have been scouring these fora for weeks.

Somebody correct me if I am wrong, but my expectation is that flipping an AI or TI is not such a big thing as long as everything is lashed down or, at least, on a leash.

• Boat flips or pitchpoles, you go in the water
  .
• If you are leashed to the boat, you pull the emergency disconnect on the leash and hang on to the line.
  .
• Boat probably goes turtle within less than a minute it it is a capsize.... and it's already turtled if you pitch-poled.
  .
• You duck down and make sure the mainsheet is uncleated so the sail does not catch water on the way back up.
  .
• You collapse one set is akas, bringing that ama in next to the hull.
  .
• You put the line that you are carrying (!!!!) just for that occasion around the other ama.
  .
• You put your feet on the bottom/folded-ama side of the hull, and lean back.
  .
• The other ama comes out of the water and down on you as the whole rig comes right-side-up.
  .
• You grab the boat by the bow line and let it weathervane into the wind.
  .
• You re-extend the folded ama, climb aboard and get back to sailing.

viz: http://www.hobieadventureisland.com.au/ ... ry-photos/ except it looks like he collapsed both amas.

Am I missing anything?

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2015 AI in "Dune" - "The Grey Pig"
2017 Trailex 450 Trailer
Pre-September 2015 cradles
(anybody want to buy a slightly-used AI SpinKit?)
eMail: [email protected]

Yep, not to difficult.

One thing to keep in mind, MOST AI & TI owners have never flipped their boats. I've owned quite a few Hobie Islands over almost 9 years, and have only flipped one once, after breaking a rudder pin (and not realizing it) on a launch in a rather large shore break. And I've sailed in conditions most 'Island' sailors have never sailed in.

So, be prepared, but not worried...

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Hobie Island Sailing since 2006

Maybe. The bow has very little to hang onto. During my recent capsize, I never went up to the bow for that reason. Really, no need to go to the bow. That said, I'm going to add grab lines from the front xbar to the bow tip as a matter of safety.

Keith
.

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2015 AI 2, 2014 Tandem

"Any intelligent fool can make things bigger and more complex ... It takes a touch of genius and a lot of courage to move in the opposite direction." A. Einstein

"Less is more" Anon

I have been debating with myself whether to leash to my AI. It seems smart in one way if you get tossed from the boat you could lose contact with it quickly. But I can't help wonder if the line somehow got wrapped around your neck -- which, while unlikely, in a capsize event seems plausible -- if the risk outweighs the benefit... ?

Benefit outweighs the risk in my opinion. I've been thrown from the boat before and was just lucky I was able to grab the aka. As mentioned on forum, separation from a kayak lists as the most likely cause of fatality to kayakers.

Vetgam

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Greg

2016 AI - Spinn & Jib

“Out of sight of land the sailor feels safe. It is the beach that worries him.”
– Charles G. Davis

In a capsize event, the Island won't be going anywhere fast! I only rig my 20 foot tether (connected to my wader belt) when sailing offshore (my local lake is 74km2, but a shore is never too far away). I keep the excess line looped inside a length of pvc pipe, so there is not much lying around on deck.

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Tony Stott
2012 Tandem Island "SIC EM" with Hobie spinnaker

Wetas come with a dedicated anchor point for the tether, but the Weta people are adamant about quick release. They want you to have a quick release between the harness and the tether - and they want you to practice releasing until it becomes automatic - against the chance of getting drowned as the Weta goes turtle and takes you with it.

For my money, the tether is 99% for not losing contact with the boat if/when I wind up in the water.

_________________
2015 AI in "Dune" - "The Grey Pig"
2017 Trailex 450 Trailer
Pre-September 2015 cradles
(anybody want to buy a slightly-used AI SpinKit?)
eMail: [email protected]

I appreciate the conversation -- even moreso after putting in more hours on our TI in a variety of conditions. We love the boat, and we're starting to make fewer stupid rookie mistakes. But we still make them.

Those who are younger, athletic, and/or have significant sailing experience are in a different boat than 55 year old newbies like Robert and I. (<--- see what I did, there?)

When we tipped our JY in class, it was frightening. It's one thing to read about capsizing a boat, and another to be navigating a turn one minute and the next finding yourself floating in your PFD near a capsized boat with the sail in the water, caught in a current against the breakwater rocks. It turned out to be an invaluable experience as we not only learned how to right a capsized sailboat, but also that tipping a sailboat into the water wasn't the end of the world. Having said all that, we were near shore and had an instructor in a rescue motorcraft nearby watching over us. I have no strong desire to repeat that exercise in the middle of busy Muskegon Lake -- especially in winds and choppy water.

One of the things I do want to do is pull up within swimming distance of one of the nearby beaches and stand up and walk around on the TI ... even jump off and take a swim. We don't yet have the tramps and don't stand up or move around much in the boat, yet -- and before we DO get the tramps, it would be good practice getting in and out of the boat in water over our heads.

I really appreciate those of you who are experienced sailors, and especially experienced with the TI, but can still remember what it was like to be a newbie. Sharing your experiences not only helps keep us out of trouble, but makes our new hobby so much more enjoyable. Thanks!

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........~ media1der ~........
............. Chris .............
2013 Hobie Tandem Island
--- Muskegon Yacht Club ---

That would be a good time to practice re-mounting in deep water (i.e. without standing on the bottom).

Also, I am taking the comment from somebody else about grab lines from the bow to each aka - that will be the first "Mod" that I apply to my new AI.

_________________
2015 AI in "Dune" - "The Grey Pig"
2017 Trailex 450 Trailer
Pre-September 2015 cradles
(anybody want to buy a slightly-used AI SpinKit?)
eMail: [email protected]