Jibs and the TI

I've been messing about with jibs (several different sizes), and spinnakers (several different sizes and styles) for a really long time (since 2010) with my TI.
I have certain likes and dis-likes about all of the different variations.

The thing I like about spinnakers is in light winds, I can pretty much count on being able to sail 1=1 with the wind downwind with all my spinnakers, my current wing spinnaker can also work upwind to around 60 degrees off the winds. I'm pretty satisfied with my spinnaker which works on a roto furler making it very fast and easy to open/close as needed. Here is a video showing my spin working. Yea I've had it out in winds over 20 mph, but it becomes such a wild ride at that point, it's not worth the risk. I typically don't put it out in winds over 10-15 mph. Actually I keep the boat rigged for it, but seldom bring it along anymore ( I don't do a lot of downwind sailing, and get satisfactory performance running wing on wing with my current wing jib, so the spin stays hanging in the garage most of the time).
I have had G2 type spins up to 135 sq ft, which were in my opinion a little large for the boat, I'm thinking around 100 sq ft code zero type spinnaker (like Hobies), would be the ideal size.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CLfQmIKm2MQ


With jibs I have ran 20 sq ft (Hobie kayak sail) up to 40 sq ft. The 20 sq ft was too small, and the 40 sq ft was too much for the boat. Most of my jibs ended up 25 to 30 sq ft, where I had a good balance of performance, (my current wing jib is 33 sq ft).

Now I have the boat widened, I could easily fly a larger (40 sq ft) jib/genoa, but am not sure I would want much larger than that.

I have always used jibs, so I don't have a lot of experience without one, but since all my jibs are always rotofurling, I can open and close them quickly, making it pretty easy to judge performance increase/decrease at the moment. Typically opening the jib gets me 1-2 mph increase in speed, I have always been able to sail closer to the wind with all my jibs (my main reason for using them), typically 10 degrees closer to the wind. The jibs also help on downwind, by flying them wing on wing (jib to one side, main to the other), especially with a nice barbor hauler on the main, almost to the point of not bothering opening the spinnaker unless it's a long haul.

The worst point of sail on my boat is a 90 deg reach, so I seldom sail on a reach, mostly upwind/downwind sailing.

The main mast on the TI is really far forward on the boat and there is not enough flotation on the bow to support the big sails on a downwind, with the main and spin out, on a downwind the bow dives under water and just stays down (I call it Nautilus mode). A long time ago before adding the bowsprit I had to use hydrofoils to keep the bow from diving. After adding the bow sprit, all my diving problems went away completely. With the fore sails angled they also create quite a bit of lift which raises the bow out of the water a few inches when pushing hard downwind. Another issue is with all three sails up, without the bowsprit the distance between the 3 sails is too close and I can't get enough air in between them to make them work.

The bow on the TI is very weak (because of the giant hole where the hatch opening is), and I have folded one of my boats slightly at the hatch. If your planning to add massive sail sets it's probably a good idea to re-enforce the bow of the boat. I have 3/4" sq alum external braces mounted on my boat. The braces also prevent the hatch seal from leaking excessively. Without the bow brace when pushing the boat hard (with the big sails), the entire bow of the boat waves around 5-6 inches in all directions, and the front hatch leaks like a siv without the bracing. I sometimes tape a garbage bag over the front hatch to keep water from coming in when hot dogging offshore.

As you can see in this video the boat even at just ten mph forward speed in 7 mph winds is such a handful, it becomes so physically demanding that I typically restrict my cruise speeds to 8-10 mph. In gusty conditions you are at great risk of pitchpoling the boat at higher speeds (been there done that too many times)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-npwA3izDiw


In good winds (around 15 mph) the boat easily cruises up to around 15 mph, but the ride is so intense, and physically demanding, I seldom push that hard. Keep in mind upwind you have your forward speed plus windspeed so the wind on your face and over your full sails is in excess of 30mph, generating around 40 hp. It's actually very scary because as you are skimming over the 2-3 ft chop you can actually see the entire hull bending and flexing up to a foot in all directions. The water force on the AMA's is so great that I break sheer pins pretty much every time if I don't have additional bracing on the AMA's. Also the bungy's on the AMA's are not strong enough to keep the AMA's on the boat.
Next problem is the rudder pin, if your flying along at 15-20 mph and crank the rudder hard to avoid something the rudder pin just snaps and the rudder just flies up into the air because of the extreme water force. I don't think there is any way of avoiding this.
The next problem is pitch poling the boat. I have pitch poled 6 times now. It's always the same story, I flying along at 15-20 mph, (downwind only (obviously in higher winds) with spinnaker with no motors in the water (max speed of motors is 15 mph)). I run into a boat wake from a big powerboat, I always jump the first wave, land on top of the second, then dive under the third. The bow dives down around 4 ft, the stern comes in the air, and the boat stops in 1 second flat. It always takes out the nylon sheer pins, and I've snapped a couple rear stay lines.
Please keep in mind I only go out in very low winds these days, typically 4-7 mph winds, with my current setup I still get all the cool features I like about the TI, with no motors I can always get pretty much 1=1 with the wind in light air, and with the supplimental propulsion I average 2x to 3x wind speed on most points of sail (except beam reach, which I try to avoid). I'm really happy with what I have.
If you want a go fast boat, get an H16

Hope this helps
FE

I would guess, like you speculate, because a 130 (I just measured mine at 1.75m/1.25m=1.40) has the CE farther aft, it might generate less lee helm than a jib with a shorter foot. Also since my jib head is quite close to the top of the mast and therefore the mast itself, it may aid a bit in the CE being farther aft. And, I am almost always sailing with the jib extended fully. My experience is that whether sailing alone (front seat) or with others (front, back and the haka - above the rear aka) the TI seems to sail fairly straight line with hands off the rudder, though it does depend on the wind. I will try to pay more attention to this and try furling the jib to see how that might affect the helm. One thing I do with the rudder is make sure the 'Down' line is almost as TIGHT as I can pull it. That makes quite a difference in how light the rudder is especially when the wind picks up.

Some day with steady wind (not often I have those sailing in a crater with mountains all around), I would like to measure the difference in how high into the wind I can sail, full jib, partial jib and no jib. Also, see if sitting in the back makes a difference... And check to see how the helm pressure/direction is changed with different jib extensions...

Does anyone have wisdom on how to make the boat sail into the wind better. I really wanted the jib to assist with that. What about adding another centerboard closer to front of the boat help?

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...mark...

Enjoying a 2012 TI
w/ hakas, a stainless steel
mast topper & furling jib

Jib related, but in a different direction...

I had been a little bothered by the fact that my mast topper fore arm would always move significantly leeward. I had assumed that it was something I was going to have to live with if I didn't want a fairly tight back stay. WRONG! I fixed the problem.


The mast topper jib halyard support arm is pulled leeward by even light winds. Much more in strong winds. This photo is without the side stay attached. But even with the side stay attached, but just on the side support arm, it was only a tiny bit better.


I split the side stay line near the mast topper with one line going to the mast topper side stay support arm. The other line went to the halyard (jib head) support arm.


With the top pieces of the 'Y' having the approximate correct length, the result is the mast topper arm stays straight with the boat.
Mission accomplished! And it works somewhat better than I anticipated. Will it affect sail efficiency positively? I will probably never know. But having it straight with the world sure feels better. I am now more tempted than ever to cut off the back piece that I don't use, but have left, thinking, maybe some day a spinnaker or...

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...mark...

Enjoying a 2012 TI
w/ hakas, a stainless steel
mast topper & furling jib

I did a couple more mods related to the jib.

1. Bow buckle: I appreciate Matt weighing in on the jib for the TI, noting the concern of the risk of the bow buckling with the extra pressure in extreme sailing. I don't plan extreme sailing with the jib and sail in a cold climate so I wasn't concerned about it for my self, but thought, just to be on the save side...But I didn't want support above deck, so played around with some scrap pieces of wood to see if I could do something internally.

The board across the hatch limits putting in large items, but for me that is not a problem. And if need be it is easily removed.


If any of you experienced sailors or engineer types would like to share concerns, offer suggestions... I am eager to learn.

2. I had a back arm on my mast topper, but never used it. I initially assumed that 'Hobie style', I would run a stay/halyard line from front to back passing through the mast topper.
BUT, have hacksaw, have no more back arm. I did leave a stub so I could drill a hole if I felt the need to do so in the future.

So the mast topper lost a few grams with no loss in benefits. AND as an extra bonus, I can keep the mast topper on the mast and all the lines (side stays and halyard) attached. It easily fits in my mast bag. It will help be cut 3-5 minutes, maybe more, from the setup process. Side stays now have color coded carabiners that just snap to the handles. The jib will have snap shackles at the head and tack to make attachment to the mast topper and the pad eye on the bow a snap. Only five pieces to attach. Side port - clip, side starboard - clip, jib to halyard line - snap, jib tack - snap, jib control line - clip. I raise the jib, estimate proper tension and cleat. I run the furling line through a pad eye and cleat. Done.And on days I don't plan to use the jib, pull from the mast topper and clip the side stays.

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...mark...

Enjoying a 2012 TI
w/ hakas, a stainless steel
mast topper & furling jib

Mark, I think an internal bow support is a good idea. It helps to reduce the likelihood of sail snags a tearing that occur with sharp edges on the bow or akas. I like what you did and wonder if you could take the center board that limits entry into the hatch and instead runs a board on each side of the hatch to the bow? Is there room and would that open up the hatch access?

If we can use a spinnaker on a TI, then the bow reinforment needs can't be huge, I would guess. Treated lumber may be all that's necessary. Well done! When you lift the bow, do you see any reduction in the flex of the hatch?

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Greg

2016 AI - Spinn & Jib

“Out of sight of land the sailor feels safe. It is the beach that worries him.”
– Charles G. Davis

Vetgam,
Thank you for your thoughts. The internal bow support was a quick slap-together experiment. After I finished I thought the same thing... 'why not run them along the side?' I used some lumber I had laying around, but yes, either treated or maybe cedar would be the way to go. At no point does the wood touch the bottom of the boat, so exposure to any puddles would be limited, I think. I did a 'lift test' but only after the reinforcement, so no comparison. My very unscientific 'guestimate' is that there was about 1/2 inch of movement, if that, when I lifted the hull with amas, and sails attached. That day did't get up to 45.

I did a bit of wild sailing with the jib and the bow didn't buckle. And the quick and dirty contraption didn't fall apart (no nails, screws or glue). But the temps were about 45 degrees at which I am guessing buckling would be pretty tough to accomplish. I also tightened the hatch bungees by about two inches each to create a tighter fit, which I am guessing would have some minimal value as well. The early part of the video has the fastest sailing. It kind of looks like the jib was doing most of the work.


Also 3:55 has my Lee Helm Test that is more scientific. You can see that the direction of the boat has essentially zero change with my hands totally off the rudder handle for very close to two minutes, until a gust of wind demanded attention. The jib is maybe at 70-80% or so and the mainsail looks like it is furled about 2.5 rotations. Technically, if the jib extends to the 140% and the main is fully out, I am guessing the CE would move aft and create some weather helm. This two minute test started with low wind and later increased, but in both situations the boat needed no rudder control to maintain its direction. I was a little surprised myself, even knowing that I never have to fight with the rudder handle to control the boat.

Per help from others I PULL the rudder down line VERY FIRMLY. If I don't there is a lot of pressure on the rudder handle. I am not intentionally doing anything else.

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...mark...

Enjoying a 2012 TI
w/ hakas, a stainless steel
mast topper & furling jib

Nice, looks like you have that boat dialed! Did your changes to the side stay attachments at the mast topper make any difference?

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-- Chad | 2014 TI

Your jib luff is pushed off centerline a bunch when the breeze is strong...I could see that the jib was still providing drive though. I also noted that there seems to be a lot of slop in the jib/luff even when furled; I don't know if you can tighten it any, but it might be helpful if you could (as long as you don't break your mast or boat). Tightening your mainsail/mainsheet might also help or reinstalling the backstay. Trying to stabilize something 20 feet in the air that is designed to be flexible is not easy.

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R/Thom
SeaRail 19
Triak
BMW C600
Formerly Getaway with Custom Spinnakers
Formerly raced F24 Mk II

Just my opinion, that boat looks really narrow to be able to carry that much sail, have you thought about widening the boat at all to be able to support the extra sail area.
Just a thought
FE

It didn't make a difference in sailing as far as I know, it just made a difference in correcting something that didn't feel right. Now I know that if adjusted right, the mast topper is square with the world. This time around, the starboard side was adjusted (at the mast topper) correctly but the port side stay was not. Getting closer...

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...mark...

Enjoying a 2012 TI
w/ hakas, a stainless steel
mast topper & furling jib

Yes, thank you for pointing that out. When I saw the video, I felt a bit embarrassed. The halyard was too loose. The last few sails I found a happy point where I can still easily furl the main, but also have a reasonably straight jib luff line. Earlier in my experiments I would adjust the jib halyard tightness according to the wind. Tight for more, not as tight for less (based on reading I had done that showed this to be the general rule for efficiency. Also initially I had it set to a 2 to 1 ratio so adjusting was a breeze. Now for simplicity, it is 1 to 1 and a bit more of a pain to adjust. More time and experience needed here.

I feel like I am just barely out of diapers as far as sailing the TI, especially with a jib. I feel like I need much more experience so my brain can naturally adjust to changes and deal with things that need attention. Once out of my seat this time I didn't have access to the lines. Only the rudder, which I justified by thinking I could just turn into the wind if it got unmanageable. That is bad sailing at best. I maybe need to use swivel cam cleats to make control from the hakas easier, make sure I take the ropes along...

I am guessing that the mast bending to one side or the other causes the halyard to loosen due to the bend... which is one problem, but this time the main problem was that it was it was too loose. I am not yet sold on the halyard / back stay single line as being effective in dealing with the matter. In my trials when I was trying to figure out the mast topper, when I tried that approach, what happened was that the mast head just slid back, loosening tension in the line. If I tightened it at that point, it would not slide forward again unless I loosened the line again. I remain confused on that system. Separate lines, I can understand better, but than the mast movement is limited, potentially limiting the efficiency of the sail.

Anyway, I am still learning. But now out of diapers, I have less messes to deal with and hopefully can utilize my time better.

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...mark...

Enjoying a 2012 TI
w/ hakas, a stainless steel
mast topper & furling jib

I have seen your boat and think WOW! You are right. Too much sail for this sailors level of expertise on this boat. My previous boat I could adjust the lean and happily go through the water along controlling it with the sail line and rudder.

My thinking is that widening it is a bigger bite than I am ready to chew now. I think at this point I need to go with major adjustments in how he sailor sails, along with some minor hardware adjustments to simplify and improve his sailing potential.

I really appreciate all you experienced people weighing in with your observations, suggestions, encouragement... Also I am thankful to Hobie for allowing this kind of communication to happen, even throwing in pieces of wisdom here and there. THANKS All!

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...mark...

Enjoying a 2012 TI
w/ hakas, a stainless steel
mast topper & furling jib

A few years ago Capt'n Chaos sent me details of the brilliant set-up he had at the top of his mast which allowed him to furl the main without having to first furl the jib. I had to furl my jib, then lower it and stow it before I could furl my main which was easy enough, but if you can furl both. it's easier to then de-rig on the beach.

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