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 Post subject: TI Carrying Capacity
PostPosted: Sun Jul 26, 2015 2:11 pm 
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Location: Blacklick, Ohio
So I got harassed by the Iowa DNR today. A) They didn't know how to classify my boat. I live in Nebraska anyways, which doesn't require me to registry the TI. B) They asked me for paperwork that said I could carry more than two people. I had my three kids on on the tramps. They said my CE sticker only allowed for 2 people or 600 lbs. I told them that the CE sticker was only meant for the center hull and that the tramps were rated at 200 lbs. My 12, 9, and 2 year olds were in no way exceeding that. They asked for documentation that said I could have more than 2 passengers with the trampolines. Does anyone know if hobie has any documentation that allows for more than 2 passengers when you have tramps installed? Or, if we can convince hobie to update the CE sticker to have allowances when the trampolines are installed?

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 Post subject: Re: TI Carrying Capacity
PostPosted: Sun Jul 26, 2015 3:38 pm 
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Good luck getting Hobie to tell you what the capacity of the AI 2 or TI with aka/amas is.

Keith

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 Post subject: Re: TI Carrying Capacity
PostPosted: Sun Jul 26, 2015 4:47 pm 
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Location: High Point, NC
I'm not sure the carrying capacity of the boat is increased by use of the amas. They're designed to add righting moment, not necessarily weight carrying capacity. In level trim with no wind on the sails, neither ama should be on the water. Sure, they do add additional flotation but that's not their intended purpose and from legal and safety standpoints it may not be possible to add them to the equation when figuring hull carrying capacity.

Of course, I may be all wet. It would be interesting to hear what the Hobie engineers have to say on the matter.


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 Post subject: Re: TI Carrying Capacity
PostPosted: Sun Jul 26, 2015 5:08 pm 
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Location: Blacklick, Ohio
Tom Kirkman wrote:
I'm not sure the carrying capacity of the boat is increased by use of the amas. They're designed to add righting moment, not necessarily weight carrying capacity. In level trim with no wind on the sails, neither ama should be on the water. Sure, they do add additional flotation but that's not their intended purpose and from legal and safety standpoints it may not be possible to add them to the equation when figuring hull carrying capacity.

Of course, I may be all wet. It would be interesting to hear what the Hobie engineers have to say on the matter.

On an AI the amas do ride higher and wouldn't touch the water. On a TI the geometry is slightly different I believe. I've always seen at least one ama touch. Anyhow, I think the CE sticker is misleading since it uses the term "or". 2 persons or 600 lbs. to me reads I can have two people or 600 lbs. Not I'm limited to two people with a maximum of 600 lbs. I would be curious to see how hobie engineers read this. Maybe everyone is misusing their TI's by putting more than two people onboard. (fusioneng I know you're guilty of that)

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 Post subject: Re: TI Carrying Capacity
PostPosted: Sun Jul 26, 2015 5:31 pm 
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Location: South Florida
I have NEVER gone out on any of my AIs (2007, 2009, 2011, 2015) and had both amas out of the water for more that a second or so when tacking across the wind. These are sail boats. I go out when there is wind. When I capsized last April with my 2015, the leeward ama was critical in re-boarding the boat. They must add to the carrying capacity of the boat. My best example of that is when I flooded my 2011 hull (http://www.hobiecat.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=70&t=7276&start=180, scroll down to "Chokoloskee to Flamingo, Jan 16-23, 2012" to read about it. The hull, which contained camping gear, was totally flooded. The cockpit was submerged to about an inch over the center hatch--my lunch actually floated out of the center hatch (which I had left open.) I closed the hatch, reduced the sail, and sailed/pedaled the 1 mile to our campsite. While the swamped hull may have floated, the amas were clearly providing significant floatation. Whether Hobie wants to include amas in the capacity (apparently they don't) is a different question.

Keith

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"Any intelligent fool can make things bigger and more complex ... It takes a touch of genius and a lot of courage to move in the opposite direction." A. Einstein

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Last edited by Chekika on Sun Jul 26, 2015 6:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: TI Carrying Capacity
PostPosted: Sun Jul 26, 2015 6:03 pm 
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Joined: Sun Apr 20, 2008 6:18 am
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Location: Sarasota,Key West FL
Thats a really sticky subject, the way I figure everything os the capacity sticker applies to the minimum configurable condition of the boat, in the case of the TI this is the kayak hull by itself, this is reasonable since the kayak has two seats and the carrying capacity of the kayak alone is 600 lbs (the Oasis is two people or 550 lbs), all very logical and straight forward. Hobie is only obligated to post the minimum configuration since they have no control over if you have the optional equipment attached. This would open up a huge liability issue for them if the boat was plaqued for lets say 6 people and 1000 lbs, and you tried to load that many people on with no ama's and tramps, plus if the boat had two plaques which one is valid at that moment, and what if you are just running one ama like in proa mode. Also on Hobies plaque they state the only motor allowed just happens to be only enough power to include their own evolve motor ( good way to prevent competition from my eyes if you are only allowed to use the manufacturers own motor).
I'm pretty sure Hobie won't touch this subject with a ten ft pole, they have complied to the federal regulations as to their minimum requirements, and thats all they will ever do.
I think the important factors here are safety ( there is no federal regulation on max occupancy) pretty much all state regulations say obay the plaque. You plaque states 2 people or 600 lbs ( the key word here is 'or'), as long as you are under 600 lbs (which equals 4 normal adults according to the law) you should be fine as long as everyone has a pfd (thats the important part) and the boat doesn't appear grossly overloaded.
We have been stopped several times, they make sure we all have Pfd's (all children must be wearing theirs), flares, and all required coast guard safety equipment (mandatory when more than 2 miles from shore) then just go on their way. I wouldn't sweat it, there are no fines or anything, the worst they can do is make you return to shore.
Bob


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 Post subject: Re: TI Carrying Capacity
PostPosted: Mon Jul 27, 2015 1:33 am 
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Location: Bethany, OK
fusioneng wrote:
I wouldn't sweat it, there are no fines or anything, the worst they can do is make you return to shore.


Which, if you've just laid down a bunch of cash on a vacation trip specifically to take the TI out to sail with the family, is a pretty big "fine" if you ask me...

One reason I'm still a bit antsy about classifying the TI a "kayak" and saying it doesn't need to be titled in my state. Sailboats MUST be. So far I've been fine, even had one lake patrol officer say "kayak" when referring to my TI, but it just takes another officer having a bad day when I'm hours away from home to really ruin a vacation and cost me a lot of money - even without actually giving me a fine.


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 Post subject: Re: TI Carrying Capacity
PostPosted: Mon Jul 27, 2015 4:27 am 
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Joined: Sun Apr 20, 2008 6:18 am
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Location: Sarasota,Key West FL
All the hassles I had were 5 1/2 yrs ago when the boat was brand new to the market, and I suspect they were pulling up to us more to check out this new cool boat than anything else, some said they wanted one for themselves.
To the best of my knowledge the TI is by a wide margin the most popular boat on the market today, and really is the best value over anything out there currently (and/or on anyones drawing boards in the near future) as a 'new age' family boat. You only need to direct them to Hobies web site where in every picture on Hobies web site, all the pictures and videos there have at least 3 people on board and as many as 5 on one pic. You can also direct them to check the hundreds of thousands of videos posted on youtube showing families using their TI's. If your concerned about being pulled over, if you have a smart phone just store a screen shot from their web site showing the family of 5 from Hobies web site as a pic so you can show them the pic if you need to. Just explain that the plaque only applies to the minimum kayak configuration, and the boat is customized (which it is with optional accessories (ie... Ama's, tramps, and the sailing rig). As I said there are no federal laws with regard to capacity, it's the CG's individual discression if a boat appears to be grossly overloaded (more than half the hull underwater, and usually quite apparent), and will at their discression force the boat back to shore), they just want everyone to be safe out there, and make sure everyone has a PFD, and appropriate safety equipment ( all states and I think federal require all children wear their PFD's), thats the important stuff.
These boats are a new age, and it will take many years for state laws to catch up with reality (this is normal). In Florida I had the very first TI registered back in spring 2010, they had no idea whatsoever even how to even classify the boat, and it took 2-3 months and many phone calls to the state capital to even get the boat titled and registered (had never been attempted before).
I doubt there is anything anyone can do, all the state regulations are done with the best intentions in mind in the interest of safety, but can't possibly keep up with reality.
My only advise is if you are overly concerned (I'm not, we have been out on ours pretty much every weekend for the last 5 yrs now with no hassles), sell the boat and get something else (good luck with that one, there is nothing else out there). I watch this forum pretty closely and to the best of my knowledge you are the first to ever mention actually having a hassle, keep in mind all the DNR, and CG people want to keep you safe (thats their job, and is greatly appreciated). I would never intentionally put myself or my family in danger, and only go out in the calmest of conditions with kids on board, and never far from shore.
Bob
Edit: there are likely ten of thousands of these boats out there now and I'm sure many are owned by real CG and DNR people, hopefully some of them can chime in here....


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 Post subject: Re: TI Carrying Capacity
PostPosted: Mon Jul 27, 2015 7:47 am 
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Location: South Florida
RandomJoe wrote:
fusioneng wrote:
I wouldn't sweat it, there are no fines or anything, the worst they can do is make you return to shore.


Which, if you've just laid down a bunch of cash on a vacation trip specifically to take the TI out to sail with the family, is a pretty big "fine" if you ask me...

One reason I'm still a bit antsy about classifying the TI a "kayak" and saying it doesn't need to be titled in my state. Sailboats MUST be. So far I've been fine, even had one lake patrol officer say "kayak" when referring to my TI, but it just takes another officer having a bad day when I'm hours away from home to really ruin a vacation and cost me a lot of money - even without actually giving me a fine.

I agree with Bob, that it really should not be a problem. If they did ask questions, I would point out that the CE label is (1) a EU requirement, and (2) applies to the hull only. The boat has much more capacity (at least 100#) when the amas are attached.

Keith

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"Any intelligent fool can make things bigger and more complex ... It takes a touch of genius and a lot of courage to move in the opposite direction." A. Einstein

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 Post subject: Re: TI Carrying Capacity
PostPosted: Mon Jul 27, 2015 9:44 am 
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Location: Omahe, NE
Thats Ironic,

Angie and I got harassed on Thursday by Iowa DNR at Storm Lake, but it was for not having a valid fishing license. He thought the TI was awesome, and didnt say a single word about needing Hull registration.

Joe

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 Post subject: Re: TI Carrying Capacity
PostPosted: Mon Jul 27, 2015 3:37 pm 
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Location: Blacklick, Ohio
Hmmm...no comment from Matt or Jbernier?

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 Post subject: Re: TI Carrying Capacity
PostPosted: Mon Jul 27, 2015 4:43 pm 
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We don't get into every topic... but I spotted this.

CE as noted, is European standards that do not apply anywhere else. Has to do with using the product in offshore and challenging conditions... In European waterways.

This does not apply to the US or other countries. There is simply a weight capacity we recommend.

On a catamaran or other products we have made over the years, there are no "seating positions". On a Catamaran you can sit on the trampoline as you can on the Islands, so with Trampolines for sure.... you can carry more persons. Up to the maximum recommended weight capacity.

We list crew size simply as a guide for most likely use.

We determined Island capacity... with amas.

2015 AI: Capacity: 400 lbs / 181.44 kg

TI: Capacity: 600 lbs / 272 kg

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 Post subject: Re: TI Carrying Capacity
PostPosted: Mon Jul 27, 2015 8:07 pm 
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Joined: Thu Aug 07, 2014 10:40 am
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Location: Blacklick, Ohio
Thanks Matt! That's pretty much what I figured when I saw the 2 persons OR 600 lbs. Even with all 3 kids, my wife, and my fat @$$ we were well under the 600 lb limit. I think the guy just wanted to give me a hard time.

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"Third Normal Form"

  • Trampolines
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  • Kayakbob's Sprayskirts
  • Spine Board Hakas


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 Post subject: Re: TI Carrying Capacity
PostPosted: Mon Aug 03, 2015 5:37 pm 
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Tom, if that doesn't work, direct them to the Hobie TI website with official promotional photographs showing 4-5 member families sailing happily along with the use of tramps.

http://www.hobiecat.com/mirage/mirage-tandem-island/

Remind them that this is exactly what the boat is designed for, and wish them a "Hobie Day",..

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 Post subject: Re: TI Carrying Capacity
PostPosted: Mon Aug 03, 2015 6:03 pm 
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Yep, I printed off Matt's reply. I'm going to laminate it and keep it in a map pocket. ;)

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