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PostPosted: Mon Sep 11, 2017 12:38 pm 
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I dread the risk of capsizing... who doesnt.... :shock:
I will do some training before next season starts. But with a fully loaded TI I guess righting the yak will be very hard if even possible!? :?

I have been searching and found theese automatic mastfloats.

https://www.secumar.com/en/product/anti ... shion-ksk/

They deploy in a few secs.
I figure the mast float can be hoisted in the jib line?
2 versions avaliable, 20liters and 40 liters (5/10 gallons) Weight 640g/860g.
I am pretty sure the 40 liter version is more then capable of stopping the TI to fully turn over.
Not sure about the 20 liter version if my TI is full loaded (150kgs / 300lbs of gear aboard).

I am also thinking about filling the inside of the carbon mast with soft PU foam to keep the water from filling up the mast if it ditches in the H2O.

Anyone tried one of theese floats?
Any thoughts of the issue?

Better safe then sorry..... Better broke then bored....
:mrgreen:

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 11, 2017 1:41 pm 
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It is not that big a deal if, upon capsize, the boat turtles. What you need to have are some lines from the cockpit area which allow you to position yourself to pull the boat back up. The mast and sail will come up in the process.

BTW, if you have "keep-out" lines, it is unlikely that your boat will capsize in the first place. You can read about keep-out lines here https://www.hobie.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=70&t=7276&start=1020

Keith

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 11, 2017 2:19 pm 
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Chekika wrote:
It is not that big a deal if, upon capsize, the boat turtles. What you need to have are some lines from the cockpit area which allow you to position yourself to pull the boat back up. The mast and sail will come up in the process.

BTW, if you have "keep-out" lines, it is unlikely that your boat will capsize in the first place. You can read about keep-out lines here https://www.hobie.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=70&t=7276&start=1020

Keith

I will surely try that out Keith but with TI in full "turtle mode" and the 50Lb outboard pointing straight upside/down as a "keel" (plus all other weight in my TI) and also no easy way to unfold the amas (due to haka bench/tramps etc) I am very doubtful that I will manage righting the TI in rough seas.

So I would very much like to avoid the full upside down "turtle mode" and settle for "tarpon on the surface mode". :lol:

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 12, 2017 6:35 am 
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Chekika wrote:
...BTW, if you have "keep-out" lines, it is unlikely that your boat will capsize in the first place...

That was my assumption too until this August when I almost capsized in a storm that came out of nowhere on a previously sunny, calm day with no aka/ama malfunction. With the sail furled by three quarters I was trying to make it back to shore when the TI was quickly and without warning blown upward on a strong wind gust, teetering at a 45 degree angle. I narrowly avoided a capsize by quickly turning into the wind and throwing my weight as best I could to bring the boat back down. I was very lucky.

In such a storm there would be little to no chance of righting the boat if it capsized. The wind and waves were too fierce. If I found myself in the water in those conditions, the best I could do would be to simply hold on. Performing a tricky righting maneuver would be extremely difficult to near impossible in three to five foot storm churned waves. On that day I was near a thirty foot rock cliff where the wind and waves would have quickly carried me. It was a life threatening situation and the closest I ever come on any boat to possibly drowning in 32 years of boating. It was a very humbling experience.

For this reason I feel that an automatic mast float would definitely be something to consider. For safety preparation, you must assume that you can still capsize even without a aka/ama malfunction, and if you do, it will probably be in conditions where it may be extremely difficult to right the boat yourself. Anything that could be done to improve this situation should be considered.


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 12, 2017 6:52 am 
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I wonder if this could be fitted to the TI mast:
https://www.strictlysailinc.com/product/hobie-cat-mast-flotation-can-be-used-on-many-boats-helps-with-righting-baby-bob-part-30115/

Image

With a rotating mast it would present problems unless it could be made to swivel.


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 12, 2017 7:21 am 
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If you are worried about capsizing, then one of the best preps you can do is practice capsizing and recovery. Get out and do it!

You can read about my capsize in rough seas here: https://www.hobie.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=70&t=54465

Keith

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 12, 2017 7:47 am 
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pro10is wrote:
Chekika wrote:
...BTW, if you have "keep-out" lines, it is unlikely that your boat will capsize in the first place...

That was my assumption too until this August when I almost capsized in a storm that came out of nowhere on a previously sunny, calm day with no aka/ama malfunction. With the sail furled by three quarters I was trying to make it back to shore when the TI was quickly and without warning blown upward on a strong wind gust, teetering at a 45 degree angle. I narrowly avoided a capsize by quickly turning into the wind and throwing my weight as best I could to bring the boat back down. I was very lucky.

In such a storm there would be little to no chance of righting the boat if it capsized. The wind and waves were too fierce. If I found myself in the water in those conditions, the best I could do would be to simply hold on. Performing a tricky righting maneuver would be extremely difficult to near impossible in three to five foot storm churned waves. On that day I was near a thirty foot rock cliff where the wind and waves would have quickly carried me. It was a life threatening situation and the closest I ever come on any boat to possibly drowning in 32 years of boating. It was a very humbling experience.

For this reason I feel that an automatic mast float would definitely be something to consider. For safety preparation, you must assume that you can still capsize even without a aka/ama malfunction, and if you do, it will probably be in conditions where it may be extremely difficult to right the boat yourself. Anything that could be done to improve this situation should be considered.


Ouch!! Tricky situation! Very well handled! :)
Yes, it is situations like that that one really wants to avoid but as Murphys Law states.... "If it is possible it will inevitable sooner or later happen". :shock:
The inflatable mast float cost about $150 so I think its worth the money for that added security.

I often fish 10-15 miles offshore, so if the weather unexpectadly changes for the worst it will take at least an hour getting ashore. I allways listen carefully to the forcasts and keep myself updated during the day but local storms are unpredictable in the summers.

In my younger days I did a lot of wreck diving here in the south Baltic. Cold and dark dives and sometimesin a bit heavy seas. After a few tragic accidents we lost two dive-buddies in the club. :(
The investigation led to the asumption that it was technical errors and lack of redundency systems that was the cause. This fact in combination with weather conditions led to a chain of events that led to the accidents. A few years after that happened I was working with dive accident related investigations and the same pattern was a commonly seen. Very experianced divers but lack of redundency or bad judgement concerning the weather, but mostly a combination of theese two things. :shock:
The "tech-diving" thinking in Sweden grew out of theese tragic accidents in the early 80s. :roll:
Redundency, preparation, training and not to thrust that help would be avaliable if a bad situation occured. You have to be able to be totaly self independant i all situations.

I have kept this way to think and plan about safety at sea since then.
Gear alone will not suffice, off course training and good judgement is imperative.
Rutines, checklists and training/education... all important. Planning ahead, expect the unexpected and be prepared if the worst would occur.
Never assume it wont happen, better expect it to...
In most situations capzising the TI should be managable but the combination with bad weather is frightening. And in what situation are you most likely to capzise? Yup.., when the wind and waves picks up!

Anyway I now ordered the 40 liter mastfloat, the size and weight differance is marginal compared to the smaller version.
I ordered some extra co2 cartridges and plugs. Will do a test with my TI fully loaded with sandbags simulating the weight from motors, batteries and all other gear. Just let the mast float deploy and practice to righten the yak as it lies on its side as I expect it will do? :) Then I will remove the mast float and try to righten it from the fully inverted "turtle mode".
I guess I will have to weight down the ama on one side with at least 150 lbs of sandbags to enable the TI to capsize without folding the ama? I am really looking forward of doing theese tests. Its very exciting to try out and get to know the limitations of the yak. :)
I will post once its done... should be interesting and a bit amusing to watch me "semi-drowning"! LOL!
Will take a few weeks before delivery arrives.

Sorry about the long post.... :roll:
All the best!
:mrgreen:

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 12, 2017 9:17 am 
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Husse0416,
Awesome, I and I'm sure many others here are looking forward to your 40 liter mastfloat tests and feedback.

Keith,
You have published excellent and highly valuable information in this forum concerning TI/AI capsizing and recovery. Thank you so much for that.

I have indeed used your and other posts and YouTube videos to rig and practice righting my TI (in good weather). In my experience, with the right setup, it is entirely possible to right it in good to fair conditions by a person in good physical condition as long as one has practiced the operation, has previously rigged the boat as instructed, and if no panic ensues. However, in very inclement conditions, where a capsize is most likely, I feel the possibility of success is considerably reduced. It will require even greater physical effort fighting the action of the wind and waves and panic is more likely to occur, which is why exploring a mast float is a good idea.


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 12, 2017 9:50 am 
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Husse0416 wrote:
Anyway I now ordered the 40 liter mastfloat, the size and weight differance is marginal compared to the smaller version.
I ordered some extra co2 cartridges and plugs. Will do a test with my TI fully loaded with sandbags simulating the weight from motors, batteries and all other gear. Just let the mast float deploy and practice to righten the yak as it lies on its side as I expect it will do? :) Then I will remove the mast float and try to righten it from the fully inverted "turtle mode".
I guess I will have to weight down the ama on one side with at least 150 lbs of sandbags to enable the TI to capsize without folding the ama? I am really looking forward of doing theese tests. Its very exciting to try out and get to know the limitations of the yak. :)
I will post once its done... should be interesting and a bit amusing to watch me "semi-drowning"! LOL!
Will take a few weeks before delivery arrives.


This could be a little tricky to mount with the furling sail.
What if it deploys with a partially furled sail?

Any ideas on how you plan to mount it?

I'd be interested in how testing goes.

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 12, 2017 10:30 am 
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mswlogo wrote:
Husse0416 wrote:
Anyway I now ordered the 40 liter mastfloat, the size and weight differance is marginal compared to the smaller version.
I ordered some extra co2 cartridges and plugs. Will do a test with my TI fully loaded with sandbags simulating the weight from motors, batteries and all other gear. Just let the mast float deploy and practice to righten the yak as it lies on its side as I expect it will do? :) Then I will remove the mast float and try to righten it from the fully inverted "turtle mode".
I guess I will have to weight down the ama on one side with at least 150 lbs of sandbags to enable the TI to capsize without folding the ama? I am really looking forward of doing theese tests. Its very exciting to try out and get to know the limitations of the yak. :)
I will post once its done... should be interesting and a bit amusing to watch me "semi-drowning"! LOL!
Will take a few weeks before delivery arrives.


This could be a little tricky to mount with the furling sail.
What if it deploys with a partially furled sail?

Any ideas on how you plan to mount it?

I'd be interested in how testing goes.


As I am planning to get a jib/spinnaker to the TI in the future anyway I have ordered a REPLACEMENT HOBIE ISLAND SPINNAKER MAST TIP ROTATOR https://www.southwindkayaks.com/product ... ip-rotator
I figure it would be possible to hoist the inflatable mast float up to the spinnaker mast tip rotator, fingers crossed! :roll:
Then the main sail can be furled not affecting the mast float... I hope! :)

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 12, 2017 11:03 am 
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@Pro10is--the wind is actually an aid in righting a capsized boat. As you right the boat (1) the mast is trailing the hull on the windward side, (2) you are on the leeward side, pulling the hull/aka/ama/haka/tramp over towards you, (3) the wind, on the windward side, is pushing the hull/aka/ama/haka/tramp over towards you. The wind is your friend when righting your boat.

Keith

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 12, 2017 11:21 am 
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I figure it must be easier to righten the AI/TI if its capsized with both akas extended laying on its side and not totally inverted? The ama beeing pressed under water must give a lot of lift.... it cant take to much force to turn it right....

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 12, 2017 9:39 pm 
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Husse0416 wrote:
I figure it must be easier to righten the AI/TI if its capsized with both akas extended laying on its side and not totally inverted? The ama beeing pressed under water must give a lot of lift.... it cant take to much force to turn it right....


Keep in mind I have zero experience in righting a TI or AI.

But your comment got me thinking, I'm not so sure.

Maybe it's better it does go over turtle so that you can fold in the Ama's. With it on it's side there could be too much tension on them to release them (safely!).
I'm not sure if they would sink or not, either way it would be under tension.

With them out the boat might stand up too quick, slap you on the head or something. With them folding in, it should roll up more gracefully.

Also tramps might cause wind issues too if the Ama's are out with tramps.

Regarding wind helping. For both Dingy's and Wind Surfing wind helped and hurt. I always pointed the mast tip down wind. If the wind got under it, it would often flip right over to the other side (how do I know this :)) But with the mast tip pointed down wind you were working against the wind a bit. Especially when it was half up before the boom was free from the water.

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 13, 2017 1:30 am 
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mswlogo wrote:
Husse0416 wrote:
I figure it must be easier to righten the AI/TI if its capsized with both akas extended laying on its side and not totally inverted? The ama beeing pressed under water must give a lot of lift.... it cant take to much force to turn it right....


Keep in mind I have zero experience in righting a TI or AI.

But your comment got me thinking, I'm not so sure.

Maybe it's better it does go over turtle so that you can fold in the Ama's. With it on it's side there could be too much tension on them to release them (safely!).
I'm not sure if they would sink or not, either way it would be under tension.

With them out the boat might stand up too quick, slap you on the head or something. With them folding in, it should roll up more gracefully.

Also tramps might cause wind issues too if the Ama's are out with tramps.

Regarding wind helping. For both Dingy's and Wind Surfing wind helped and hurt. I always pointed the mast tip down wind. If the wind got under it, it would often flip right over to the other side (how do I know this :)) But with the mast tip pointed down wind you were working against the wind a bit. Especially when it was half up before the boom was free from the water.


I will soon have some better experiance and knowlage about the issues about capzising/rightingn my TI.
Folding my tramps is not an option unless its a lifethreatning situation. Tramps, haka benches, extra aka arms and other gear makes this difficult and timeconsuming apart from the risk of loosing gear to "the depths". :)
So for now I stay firm with my plan and see what the future testing will show.
All the best!
/Gustav

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 13, 2017 7:47 am 
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Unlike a catamaran, trimarans tend to automatically turtle as soon as they capsize. The addition of a mast float, unless it is a very large one, won't stop this from happening. And at some point, the addition of such a large mast float does two things - makes it much harder to step the mast, and increases windage which can itself make a capsize more likely.


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