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PostPosted: Thu Jul 01, 2010 4:04 pm 
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Location: Brooklyn, NY
Hi everyone
I just bought an 81 Hobie 16 last week, been out 4 times. I'm loving every second of it, sailing out of Brooklyn, NY.
I sailed as a teen, but that was nearly 30 years ago. My first post here, excuse me if I'm not doing it right. :)

Yesterday I was fighting the tiller all day - it was a good work-out but something wasn't right.
I looked it up here and discovered 'weather helm'.
I think its what I have it. I had to pull really hard on the tiller to keep from heading directly into the wind. I hear I'm suppose to have some of it for safety sake (totally makes sense to me) but it's really really hard to hold after a while. I even tacked just to give my hand a break!

This forum suggested:
1.) making sure the rudder is locked down (I need to stay on top of this better). And the rudder rake is important. (I need to learn more about this)
2.) and that the mast could be raked back too much, if I understood correctly. So I should rake the mast forward, but then there is more chance of pitch-poling.

I store the boat on the beach so I never have to take down the mast (or adjust its rake).
Its adjusted the way the previous owner had it. He seemed to know what he was doing so I don't want to fiddle with it too much.
And the weather helm seemed much worst on my last outing.

How do I judge how far to rake the mast forward? Just test it?
Should I just pull the jib halyard super tight to rake the mast forward? Shortening the forestay?
Should I loosen the side-stays?
better ideas?

thanks a lot
frank


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 01, 2010 5:15 pm 
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Location: Winston Salem, NC
Frank,

From your description of a very strong weather helm, I would think the rudders are not getting locked down. Check the cams to be sure they aren't broken or frozen in the up position. I don't think mast rake would have that much affect.

I don't understand - you ask if you should pull the jib halyard tight to pull the mast forward (?). The forestay holds the mast up when the jib isn't up. It will have quite a bit of slack but the jib halyard and the shrouds should not have any slack. Pulling the halyard tight, tightens up the whole rig, taking out all the slack. I don't know if wear in the holes in the rudder could cause the rudder angle to change but I would check that as well.

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 01, 2010 6:07 pm 
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Location: Brooklyn, NY
Thanks Howard
I will examine the rudders and insure they are down all the way - I haven't really checked them out fully - so I don't know how the guts work.

About the jib halyard: I'm not sure I have the concept right - but my understanding is that the jib halyard draws the jib tighter than the forestay when tightened properly (making the forestay slack), so wouldn't that rake the mast forward? And pulling the jib tighter will increase the forward angle until the limit of the side-stays is reach? If I failed to properly tighten the jib halyard enough wouldn't that allow the mast to angle back?

I'll definitely check out the rudders. And report back.

thanks again
frank


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 02, 2010 5:29 am 
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Location: Virginia Beach VA
Quick and easy check is to go up one hole (lengthen) in your shroud adjusters. If you can tell a difference do it again if necessary. You are changing the balance of the boat but not so much that you can't shift your crew weight aft to compensate. A lot of things affecting weather helm you can't do much about like current, wind direction and boat heading. IMO boats without dagger boards are always going to have at least some weather helm which is a safety benefit. Also, check your rudder pitch and toe in. If you get more helm on one particular tack your rudders might be at different angles. Older boats cam be a collection of parts and pieces. You may not have a matched set of rudders.


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 02, 2010 6:39 am 
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Location: Jersey Shore
hrtsailor wrote:
Frank,

From your description of a very strong weather helm, I would think the rudders are not getting locked down. Check the cams to be sure they aren't broken or frozen in the up position. I don't think mast rake would have that much affect.


I agree, it sounds like almost definitely your rudders are not locked down. Changing the mast rake and/or rudder rake is a means of fine tuning the helm, but if your hand is getting tired just steering in a straight line, then there is something seriously out of whack with the system, and it's most likely that your rudders aren't down all the way.

I would recommend you mess with the rudders with the boat on the trailer so you get a good understanding of how the system is supposed to work BEFORE you get on the water. With the rudders in the sailing position, they shoud be locked forward and the tiller arm should be locked down, only able to be lifted with a sharp jerk to pop the cam free. Also, the leading edge of the rudder should be within about 1/2" or less of the inside surface of the lower rudder casting when the rudders are properly locked down.

You probably need to pull the old cams out, replace them and properly lubricate the system. These items do wear out and it's not uncommon for them to need to be replaced, especially on older boats.

sm


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 02, 2010 8:41 am 
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Here is a FAQ answer on rudders, cams and helm:

http://www.hobiecat.com/community/viewtopic.php?f=18&t=467

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 02, 2010 10:32 am 
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Location: Winston Salem, NC
Frank,

On the tightening of the jib halyard, remember that holding the mast up with the forestay is a temporary situation. The wire in the jib becomes the forestay and when pulled tight, holds the mast in the proper position. That can be adjusted by changing the connection of the shrouds but merely increasing tension on the jib halyard isn't an adjustment. It should be tight enough to tension the shrouds.

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PostPosted: Sun Jul 04, 2010 12:26 pm 
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Location: Brooklyn, NY
Thanks everyone.
I definitely did not have the rudders properly locked down.
And I made sure to pull the jib halyard tight.
All good now.
frank

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 14, 2010 1:10 pm 
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Do a google search for "What's All This About Weather Helm?"
by Kim Miller
The info is probably here in this forum too, but the above is the way to go on this one.


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 14, 2010 7:29 pm 
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Location: Clearwater, FL
"What's All This About Weather Helm?" by Kim Miller

http://www.catsail.com/archives/v2-i8/feature1.htm

http://www.catsail.com/archives/v3-i2/feature3.htm

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84 H16
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Tortola Sails: 115222
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Last edited by Tim H16 on Wed May 19, 2021 2:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 15, 2010 9:12 am 
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The Hobie Forums FAQ on Rudders - Cams / Rake / Alignment covers this as well...

Sailing FAQ: http://www.hobiecat.com/forums/viewforum.php?f=18

Rudder FAQ: http://www.hobiecat.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=18&t=467

Quote:
CAMS -

The Hobie rudder cam system is pretty easy to deal with if you keep it greased. Use marine grease, if possible, between the cam and plunger. Anything will do as a temp lubrication: Suntan lotion, WD-40 or Chap Stick etc. Marine or bearing grease just stays there longer. Lubricating the system will prevent damage to the cam and plunger that is caused when the cam gets stuck in the down position.

A tight fit is required between the upper arm and cam (lower casting) when the rudder is locked down. The rudder should be held firmly against the lower casting. Any rudder movement, aft from the casting, indicates a miss-adjustment that can allow the upper arm to disengage from the cam without forcing it to rotate into the open (unlocked) position.

If the cam sticks in the down position there are several methods to get it to rotate release. From above and forward of the assembly, lift the upper arm and rotate it aft and out of the way. Loop a line around the cam yank the line to pop the cam open. You can also use the tiller arm to assist this technique by wrapping the line around the cam, then lowering the tiller arm and wrapping the line a few times around the tiller arm. Pull up on the tiller arm which (through the line) levers the cam open. There are several tools that can also be used. I use a large blade screwdriver that can be inserted into the side of the cam to leverage it open. There is also a tool (Hobie Part # 83103 / 2003 Catalog page forty eight) that has a small hook that can be used (by drilling a small hole in the cam to allow it to be inserted) for leverage. You can also use a small flat blade screw driver to work between the cam and plunger... force the plunger down to unlock the cam. I find that this works very well even if the cams are dry and un-lubricated.

If the cam is really stuck down, the only tool needed is a small blade screwdriver. You work the blade between the cam and plunger to force the plunger down and release the cam. Don't bother with the big screw under the spring they often are fused in place and the spring does not need to be adjusted but a few times in the life of the boat.

If the cam keeps getting stuck down, even when greased, there is a miss adjustment in the upper casting plate (newer boats), the rudder is drilled wrong causing too much play in the system or it is worn out (too flexible) where it hooks the upper casting.

A cam plate too far forward can keep the cam from fully locking. A cam plate too far aft will allow the rudder to slip aft in the lower casting or allow the upper casting to be raised without pulling the cam open. To adjust the upper plate, lock the rudder down and hold the rudder firmly against the lower casting (forward most position). Loosen the upper plate then back it away from the cam a little. You want to seat the plate tight against the cam (in the fully locked position) while holding the rudder forward in the lower casting. Ease the plate forward while wiggling the upper arm up and down just a bit. The idea is to find the point of deepest insert that the upper plate can get into the cam. That may mean that the upper casting is not touching the lower casting. Don't force the plate too far forward as this will begin to force the cam open. When tightening the plate, be sure the plate doesn't move. I usually tighten with the wrench handle rotating forward towards the cam to move the plate forward if anything.

RUDDER RAKE -

Rudder rake (forward or aft in the lower casting) changes the helm feel. Weather helm (pull on the tiller) is caused by the rudder being aft of neutral. Lee helm is caused by the rudder rake being too far forward. Best adjustment is to have slight weather helm on all sailing angles. This allows you to hold the tiller against a slight pull for stable sailing angles. The boat should round up slowly if you drop the tiller. Lee helm is dangerous and can cause you to loose control of the boat. Neutral helm can be difficult as the tiller is pulling and or pushing against you on different sailing angles and can cause you to have erratic steering.

On older boats, rudder rake is adjusted by re-drilling the rudder blade. Either the upper casting hole or possibly both. Newer boats use the upper casting plate (see adjustment under "CAMS" above) and set screw in the lower casting for rake adjustments. There is a basic rudder rake setting to compare to. You can also use a drilling template http://www.hobiecat.com/support/tech/rudder.html

For proper rake adjustment you may need to try several settings. Helm feel will change with different mast rake, sailing angles and sail settings...

Start off with the rudders in the locked down position. Measure down the blade 12" from the bottom of the lower casting. Mark the rudder with a line 2" long perpendicular to the 12" point (fore and aft on the blade). Using a very thin piece of line, starting at the top of the rudder pin, align the "line" with the rudder pin top to bottom (on the pins center line / axis) and check where the line intersects the mark on the rudder. Mark the point where your rudder pin axis crosses the mark you made 12" down the blade. Measure in from the front of the rudder. A larger measurement means that the rudder is raked forward more. More forward rake is less weather helm. Optimally, you should have 1 5/8" to 1 3/4" for a measurement. To achieve the 1 3/4" number, you might have to re-drill the front hole on the rudder or file away at the front of the rudder where it hits the casting. To much forward rake can cause lee helm and THAT is WORSE and even dangerous. The boats sail better and are safer if the boat rounds up slowly when the tiller is released.

You can use the above technique to measure and re-drill a blade. Mount the blade on the lower casting. Make all of the above measurements and set (and hold) the rudder in the desired rudder rake position. Lock the upper casting onto the rudder and lower casting. Push the upper assembly up into the cam to seat it tightly (that holds the rudder in the raked position once the rudder system is fully set up). Align the tiller arm angle (vertical position) with the rudder assembly on the opposite side of the boat. You can mark the bolt hole position or drill right through using the casting as a drill guide. You must hold the upper arm in position while drilling this way. I angle the drill slightly forward rather than straight through. This forces the upper casting forward more as the drill reaches the opposite side of the casting after going through the rudder blade. If the hole is too far aft, the rudder will slip aft a bit when under sailing loads.


RUDDER ALIGNMENT -

Check rudder alignment in the direction of travel. Proper rudder alignment would be 1/8" to 1/4" toe-in on a 14 or 16. This is measured with the rudders down. Measure leading edge to leading edge and then trailing edge to trailing edge. The front (toe) should be closer together than the trailing edge. Measure at about the little hump on the leading edge and straight back from there for the trailing edge. It is always possible that the rudders are actually mounted on the reverse hulls. That causes extreme toe-in problems. Look at the upper casting / arms to be sure they angle in towards the boat's centerline when the rudders are in alignment with the hulls.

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Former - Director of Parts and Accessory Sales
Warranty and Technical Support
Hobie Cat USA
(Retired 11/7/2022)


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 15, 2010 9:51 am 
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Somewhat suprised that the rudders are not drilled from the factory with more rake under the boat.Every racer I know has there rudders tucked under the boat as far as allowed with the factory drilled holes and the rudder rake adjustment screw backed right off.Makes the rudder rake adjustment option useless.


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 15, 2010 9:56 am 
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New H16s have perfect helm.

Replacement blades fit a variety of boats, so pre-drilling is not possible.

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Matt Miller
Former - Director of Parts and Accessory Sales
Warranty and Technical Support
Hobie Cat USA
(Retired 11/7/2022)


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 28, 2010 10:00 pm 
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Location: Calgary, AB
Great link and great read, thnx!

"What's All This About Weather Helm?" by Kim Miller

http://www.thebeachcats.com/OnTheWire/wwwcatsail/archives/v2-i8/feature1.htm

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 29, 2010 5:47 am 
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You are welcome!
The more important thing, just to restate so that its not lost in the details is to have the cams working, lubed and adjusted and rudders locked down in the first place. After that is when the above article becomes most useful to dial in the performance and understand whats happening.

I have come to like the weather helm (rudder track)feel now because I understand it and it usually means I am going fast 8)


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