Possible design flaw in Tandem steering?

As a matter of fact I have not.
I checked on this replacement this morning and was informed that the Hobie regional rep is skeptical and wants to actually "experience" my issues.
I guess all the documentation and writing I have done here is not enough....
I have no problem showing him what the issues are but from what I was told by my dealer, the regional rep is on another page altogether when it comes to what is actually happening. My dealer tells me the regional rep is convinced that the issue has been addressed by the removal of material to free the deployment cables as described in a technical release, which has nothing to do with my problems at all.
It is beginning to look like I will have to just continue to employ my modifications as I have yet to actually receive an improved or modified replacement, and I am beginning to doubt that I will.

Our dealer just replaced our Tandem's rudder. Here is our experience...

Last week, before installation, the dealer tested the new rudder. The new rudder tightly locked into the groove.

Then, the dealer installed the new rudder on the Tandem. The new rudder continued to positively lock into the groove. No rudder down tension necessary to hold the rudder tight in the groove. When done, he installed the rudder's bungee over the rudder in the up position.

The dealer kept the Tandem over the weekend so he could complete various additional upgrades to the Tandem and trailer. When I went to pick up the Tandem this morning, the rudder no longer positively locks into the groove. Same problem as the original rudder. The rudder will no longer tightly lock in the down position. To hold the rudder down, you must apply very strong tension to the rudder down line.

This may confirm Matt's theory. Several weeks ago, Matt theorized that that rudder blade may become warped due to the factory-installed bungee strap being too tight. Even with one cord over and one cord under the blade, the tight bungee cord may be warping the rudders.

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Marc K
2010 Hobie Tandem Island
Boynton Beach, FL

Very interesting. Hobie may have to make the rudder out of a stiffer material like fiberglass, or add a metal core to keep it from warping. That or add some kind of rudder holder on the hull to keep an up rudder blade perfectly flat.

On my AI I added a small block of foam glued to the hull that fits between the up rudder and the hull. This cushions the rudder from thumping hard on the hull when raising it and also keeps the rudder in a straighter, less angled position - especially when bungeed.

I am not so certain...

After employing the fixes of shimming the rudder out to meet the locking tongue and groove, as described on the other thread, I do not experience the same issues any longer.
My rudder is stored under the bungee and it still performs correctly when deployed.

The issue is not a warpage issue per-se but rather one of design, although it is clear that the bungee can and does warp the rudder if used incorrectly. From what I have seen on my boat even if the rudder was warped by the bungee, which it is not, that warpage would not inhibit the locking function, BUT, this is only true when the rudder is shimmed to properly engage the locking mechanism. When the rudder is left as built the sloppy fit would only be exaggerated and the errant conditions exacerbated.

At this point all the technicians and designers involved at Hobie know what the problem is, and they know how to fix it, whether or not management and the sales reps will get out of the way and let them actually do it remains to be seen.

Uhhh... don't think so. We don't "know" for sure what the answer is. Please allow us to work through the issue. Piece of logic here... Since the system does perform as designed in most cases, this does not point to a design issue alone.

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Matt Miller
Former - Director of Parts and Accessory Sales
Warranty and Technical Support
Hobie Cat USA
(Retired 11/7/2022)

the system most certainly does perform as designed, unfortunately it does not FUNCTION as intended or as needed in this application.

If I had access to the AutoCAD or ProE files I could show you what the issue is in my case AND how to fix it.
I refuse to believe that all of you cannot see the issues (there are a couple) after all of the documentation here.

What is most disconcerting is this,


I have been patiently waiting for this since jumping through several hoops for my dealer and the regional rep, only to be told that the regional rep has put a stop on everything till he is satisfied my issues are real AND I only discover this after I inquire about the parts after waiting some number of weeks without so much as a peep from the dealer, the regional rep or any other Hobie representative.

What is a solid Hobie fan and paying customer to think?

I am sure this is related to the ongoing investigation of the cause and some confusion as to the proper remedy. I promise you... a rudder that is adjusted properly and is not warped or deformed in some other way does function and operate properly. I have that experience personally.

I have just called the SE rep and promised to send a new assembly your way today (one via our warranty manager was just in my hands for review... for you). Sorry for the delay. The rep is contacting your dealer.

Caution on the deck bungee once this is installed. Either avoid its use altogether or get a longer bungee too. Only one of the two bungee loops should be over the top of the blade when used. I suggest only using during transport. Remove the cord when stored.

Even after severe testing, over a long period by us, full production runs and use around the world always seems to open up issues related to variances in molding, assembly, adjustment and use. We will continue to look for ways to make this more fool proof.

_________________
Matt Miller
Former - Director of Parts and Accessory Sales
Warranty and Technical Support
Hobie Cat USA
(Retired 11/7/2022)

I like the TI better than the AI (which I also own) for the lake we're on because of light wind here and the bigger sail area means I can sail more days on the TI. However, for the last 4 weeks since I purchased the TI I have had problems with the rudder popping out when the wind picks up. I've experimented with different settings and this is what I learned.
1. If light wind and no down pressure on the down rudder line then it steers evenly left or right like the AI.
2. If stronger wind the rudder pops out unless you have strong tension on the down rudder line.
3. When strong tension on that line it is very difficult to steer right, so you either get a pop out or risk breaking the down rudder line due to the stress on the line when turn right.
4. Examination shows that the rudder cannot sit solidly in the groove but is 2/3rds out.
5. The reason it is so difficult to steer right when there is tension on down rudder line is that turning right causes more tension on the down rudder line due to rotating away from the boat on a right turn so the down line is stretched further but is easy to turn left since rotates toward the boat so the rudder wants to turn left on its own. In other words, the down rudder line under tension acts pulls the rudder to turn left as shown in the Youtube demo shown earlier in this forum.

Suggestion to solve problem:
1. come up with a way to hold the rudder down without tension on the down rudder line - or
2. make the axis of rotation around the down rudder line of equal radius whether turning left or right so down tension doesn't pull the rudder one way.

I really like the TI so hope there is a good solution as I like to sail in good wind without losing control or breaking the rudder line.

Thank you,

Bobco

Hi All,

I have the first TI that was shipped to:
Andy LeVine
Tackle Shack Water Sports
7801 66th St. North
Pinellas Park, FL 33781
Pick up on 5/3/2010.
From the first production run and have sailed every weekend in the Gulf of Mexico and Tampa Bay. The highest winds we have seen was 25 knots gusts. We store the TI on a trailer and have not seen any trouble with the rudder at all.

Sorry to hear so many having trouble.

_________________
“Remember life is short- eat dessert first.”
The world is 70% water – So that means we should spend 70% more time sailing than mowing lawns!
Larry

Oh crap!

Add me to the growing list of TI owners with rudder problems. Took my new TI out for it's second ever outing, barely a breath of wind, just pedaling, and found that I too have rudder problems. Loss of starboard steering, recycle up and down, seems OK for a few minutes, then steering loss again... and repeat this until finally back at the launch site. Bummer.

It was my impression that the rudder should actually "snap" or "click" into place. Mine does not. It slides in and out without any resistance whatsoever from that tongue and groove arrangement. That doesn't sound right from what I've read in this thread and others?

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Cheers, Max ● TI: the "Yella Terra" ● Website: www.MadYakker.com ● YouTube: madyakkermax

I have experienced the rudder problem with my TI ever since I got it in June. However, I have usually been able to achieve a workable compromise by following Matt's initial suggestion: I go into a gentle left turn and seat the rudder hard with the down line. Once it is in place, I back off on the down line until the "T" handle just fits in the bottle holder. This results in a rudder action that is pretty much equal in both directions. However, in winds above 15 knots, or chop, the load on the rudder means that I can't get it to stay in the lock without more tension on the down line, which means that it's much harder to turn right. Having that much tension also raises the risk of breaking the steering lines.

I'm wondering whether it wouldn't be time to consider doing away with the "twist and stow" mechanism and replacing it with a straight up and down rudder retrieval system like the one used on many sea kayaks. Because the twist and stow system is asymmetric, it requires that one side of the rudder has to be detachable from its side support. Given the side loadings generated by the 18 foot hull and the 90 sf sail, the little latch on the twist and stow looks like it is at or beyond workable limits. Similarly, the longer rudder of the TI has to be more likely to flex (and set) when held down by the shock cord, even if only one side of the shock cord loop is used. (I don't use the shock cord at all now.) So, is the twist and stow serving any purpose on the TI? Wouldn't it make more sense to have the rudder simply rotate straight over onto the deck? That way it could be fully supported laterally in both directions, and the arrangement of the steering lines could be much simpler. The rudder pin could be much stronger because the risk of a collision could be accommodated by a shock cord in the retracting line. The steering lines could attach to a small yoke on the rudder head, creating more steering leverage and using a direct connection to the steering levers. Of course, the rudder would be more vulnerable when in the stowed position. But that might be a trade off that we could accept in exchange for lower risk of rudder failure, as well as needing less steering effort. I have an old tandem sea kayak that has a rudder of this type that works very well. When being transported, the rudder with its steering yoke simply lifts out of the fitting on the stern and stows in the boat. One other advantage of this rig is that the rudder can be used in shallow water because it still work (with much less effectiveness) even if no down pressure has been used.

Just wondering.

PBurling

I agree totally!

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CaptRon
"Anything's gonna happen,
it's gonna happen out there"

Yes getting rid of the twist and stow mechanism would be a massive improvement and seems like a no-brainer considering that the only drawback would be a slightly less elegant stowed position for the rudder, something that would hardly matter in practice.

Figured I might as well add my name to the growinf list if TI owners with rudder problems.

Mine won't stay in the locked position even when you try to put it there by hand. It doesn't seem to catch at all. Rudder always pops up about an inch or two (that's 2.5 to 5 cms Max.)

Jerry

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Jerry D.
St. Johns, Florida
2010 TI
2008 AI

Read back in this thread... there is an adjustment to be made on a rudder that "pops" back away from the lock. You loosen the drum bolt or possibly drill the bolt hole slightly larger to correct an alignment issue.

Fyi... we started production on Mirage Kayaks with a rudder that simply rotated aft as shown above. It was extremely problematic and prone to breakage sticking out aft. Would catch on the beach or objects and bend to failure.

Once again... since a properly functioning rudder on a TI (as noted on MANY posts in these forums) does work well... we are looking at production variances as the primary problem here.

_________________
Matt Miller
Former - Director of Parts and Accessory Sales
Warranty and Technical Support
Hobie Cat USA
(Retired 11/7/2022)