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 Post subject: Rudder hum
PostPosted: Mon Feb 14, 2011 12:29 pm 
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Joined: Fri Sep 10, 2010 4:14 am
Posts: 109
Location: Lugoff, SC
My rudders are humming on my 14 and 18 at certain speeds. The rudders on my 14 are the white stock hobie rudders (I assume), on my 18 they are black plastic looking rudders (not sure what they are). I read the fix in the support pages and am going to try it. My question is how do I know I fixed it besides shaving, replacing, sailing, and starting over if not fixed? Can you actually see the high area on the rudders?


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 Post subject: Re: Rudder hum
PostPosted: Mon Feb 14, 2011 1:41 pm 
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Joined: Sun Aug 26, 2007 5:40 am
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Location: Metuchen NJ
humming rudders are almost always caused by disturbed laminar flow at the trailing edge. you have to shave the rear 1" width top to bottom, leaving a straight transition to the edge of the rudder and eliminating the bulge from casting. you also must file square the trailing edge so it is 1/16" wide and square to the sides. this makes for a cleaner laminar flow exit off the rudder.

having done all that, and its still humming, then see if the thin nylon shim discs can fit between the rudder and casting, reducing play up there.

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Chris
'88 H18SE Arís


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 Post subject: Re: Rudder hum
PostPosted: Mon Feb 14, 2011 3:02 pm 
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Joined: Wed Jun 30, 2010 2:24 pm
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Location: Todd Mission, Texas
Have you tried teaching them the words???? :D Sorry someone had to say it.

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Jeff
1986 Hobie 18 #13031


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 Post subject: Re: Rudder hum
PostPosted: Mon Feb 14, 2011 4:07 pm 
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Joined: Mon Jul 14, 2003 7:11 pm
Posts: 5198
Location: Detroit, MI
Your Fluid Mechanics lesson for the day . . .

Cavitation
Cavitation occurs when the local pressure is lower than the saturated vapor pressure of the fluid - the fluid "boils". You can see the cavitation vapor trails in this photo of a cavitating propeller:
Image
This can be a major problem on propellers and pumps, since the bubbles collapse violently, eroding metal away.

Hobie Cat rudders do not cavitate along their trailing edge. What happens more often is ventilation, where the local pressure is below the free surface pressure of the water, and air is drawn down along the low pressure side of the foil. Since air is 1000 times less dense than water, the rudder loses its "grip" and you can't steer.

Laminar vs Turbulent Flow
In fluid mechanics, there are two general types of flow regimes: Laminar (from the Latin lamina - a thin sheet of material) where the flow moves in "layers" and Turbulent, where there is intermixing between the layers.

This illustration shows both:
Image
The general flow on the bottom of the foil is laminar; on top is turbulent.

However, that explanation is a bit simplistic if you look at the smoke trails more closely. What happens to the three smoke trails closest to the bottom of the foil? They disappear before they even get to the trailing edge! What's going on?

The answer is that there is also turbulent flow on the bottom of the foil. There is enough small-scale turbulence to dissipate the smoke but not enough to cause the streams to "blow apart" like they do on the upper surface. This is the turbulent boundary layer that starts at some distance back from the leading edge, depending on the velocity/viscosity/density of the fluid and the surface roughness of the foil. A laminar boundary layer has less drag, but a turbulent boundary layer is harder to separate from the foil. At 10 kts in water, the laminar boundary layer extends only a few inches back from the leading edge, then transitions to a turbulent boundary layer. On the rudder, the trailing edge is fully turbulent.

(This illustration also shows the foil at a relatively high angle of attack - in fact, this foil has stalled, where the flow has become separated from the low pressure (top) side. On most foils, lift will increase linearly with the angle of attack, then fall off sharply at the stall angle.)

So what's going on with a humming Hobie rudder, at zero angle of attack, if there's no cavitation, and all the flow is turbulent?

The answer is a weird phenomenon in fluids called a "Karman Vortex Sheet":
Image
They generally only form behind "bluff" bodies - like the cylinder shown in the animation. However, a foil at zero angle of attack and above a certain speed will behave like a bluff body and create a Karman Vortex Sheet. The hum occurs when the frequency of the vortex shedding equals a factor of the natural frequency of the rudder. A harmonic vibration will start and will persist even when speed drops below the "trigger" speed.

So how do you eliminate the hum?
you need to change the shape of the trailing edge to make the foil act more like a foil and less like a bluff body. Eliminate the edge bulb by shaving or sanding. A sharp trailing edge is best, but impractical - it damages easily. A 1/16" wide squared off edge is better, but you may still have humming problems. If that's the case, then have a 1/16" wide "unsquare" edge - angle it slightly to one side (same side all along the edge). That will make vortices preferentially shed to one side and stop the oscillation.

I've left out some not-so important details like Reynold's Numbers, what happens with 3 dimensional effects (tip vortices) and the viscosity and density differences between salt and fresh water, but this covers most of the high spots - and explains why Hobie rudders hum.

BTW, for the engineering geeks - the Re of a Hobie rudder is about 1.43x10^6 in fresh water; 1.53x10^6 in salt water.


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 Post subject: Re: Rudder hum
PostPosted: Mon Feb 14, 2011 5:09 pm 
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Joined: Tue Feb 03, 2009 6:53 am
Posts: 232
Location: Storm Lake, IA
God darnit, Mr. Lamarr, you use your tongue prettier than a twenty dollar whore.


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 Post subject: Re: Rudder hum
PostPosted: Mon Feb 14, 2011 5:23 pm 
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Joined: Tue May 27, 2003 12:44 pm
Posts: 15090
Location: Oceanside, California
Link to a diagram on ruder humm correction in our support area... also linked-to from the sailing FAQ.

http://www.hobiecat.com/support/articles/archive/?src=http://2010.archive.hobiecat.com/support/tech/hum.html

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Matt Miller
Former - Director of Parts and Accessory Sales
Warranty and Technical Support
Hobie Cat USA
(Retired 11/7/2022)


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 Post subject: Re: Rudder hum
PostPosted: Mon Feb 14, 2011 6:19 pm 
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Joined: Mon Jul 14, 2003 7:11 pm
Posts: 5198
Location: Detroit, MI
hobieandy wrote:
God darnit, Mr. Lamarr, you use your tongue prettier than a twenty dollar whore.
Geeze, Andy - at least include the picture to let the young-ins know what you're talking about.
Image
And the preceding line is, "My mind is a raging torrent, flooded with rivulets of thought cascading into a waterfall of creative alternatives."

Mongo just pawn in game of life.


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 Post subject: Re: Rudder hum
PostPosted: Thu Feb 17, 2011 6:21 pm 
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Joined: Mon Dec 31, 2007 6:06 pm
Posts: 610
Location: SE PA/ Chesapeak Bay
Hi Matt,

I really ... really ... really liked the example and the explaination.

Now for the next question ?????

How smooth is smooth enough for a rudder blade???? ( excess surface roughness ===> de-lamination of the fluid flow ===> leads to turbulent boundry-layer)

Basically, to what level would you sand the rudder blade to, w/ wet/dry sandpaper??? And would you buff/polish the blade then also????

Assume EPO Rudder blades since you really shouldn't sand the "polymar/plastic/lexan" rudder blades ....

(I've heard several different theories on this ....)

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HarryMurphey
H-18 mag/ #9458
Fleet 54 Div 11


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 Post subject: Re: Rudder hum
PostPosted: Thu Feb 17, 2011 7:14 pm 
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Smoother is better. The front 1/3 of the blade is most important.

Mine get sanded to 1200 wet, then polished and waxed.

On the new EPOs, it's important to eliminate the mold part line at the leading edge.

On the original EPOs, you have to be very careful not to get into the foam core, especially at the trailing edge. If you start seeing yellowish/brown when sanding, stop, recoat with resin and do it again.


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 Post subject: Re: Rudder hum
PostPosted: Thu Feb 17, 2011 7:57 pm 
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Joined: Fri Sep 10, 2010 4:14 am
Posts: 109
Location: Lugoff, SC
Your not supposed to sand the plastic/lexan rudders? (From above)

How do I fix the hum as I have the standard rudders..


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 Post subject: Re: Rudder hum
PostPosted: Thu Feb 17, 2011 8:24 pm 
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Location: Detroit, MI
Lakewateree wrote:
Your not supposed to sand the plastic/lexan rudders? (From above)

How do I fix the hum as I have the standard rudders..

You can sand the plastic / Lexan rudders.

It's just really, really labor intensive to get a decent finish on them.

The best way to deal with the hum on plastic rudders is to scrape the trailing edge, as shown in the FAQ link that Matt M. posted.


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 Post subject: Re: Rudder hum
PostPosted: Thu Feb 17, 2011 8:44 pm 
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Joined: Mon Dec 31, 2007 6:06 pm
Posts: 610
Location: SE PA/ Chesapeak Bay
Matt,

I'm of that same school of thought .... you can never be too smooth ...

The same concepts/treatment apply to the dagger-boards also for the "trailing- edge" and surface prep ....

If you use a 2000 or 2500 grit Wet/Dry paper .... would you still need to polish and wax??? Is the wax to mainly keep the surface clean??? (After 2000 wet/dry, if hung vertically and sprayed w/ water ... the water doesn't "bead" , it just drains away to a dry surface very quickly ===> no friction/no surface tension(?) ...... smooooooth .... and fast .......) Good/Bad??? .... Over-kill????

If you add the surface area of the Dagger-boards and Rudder-blades together, they have to be a significant percentage of the overall surface area of the boat's "wet" surface area .... if you can reduce the surface friction ===> since this "OD" racing and each boat should have the same wind availible, ie:power/energy .... your's should move more efficently, (assuming all other factors are equal ....)


Lakewateree:

For the the "hum" as stated earlier it involves the "trailing edge" tuning which you can use a "Mill Bastard/fine" file ... get the one w/ the "cross hatched" teeth .... basically ... lay flat ... using the file put a 45* bevel on one side, turn over and do the other side, now finish by squaring the trailing edge between the two bevels ... should be approximently 1/3-1/3-1/3 .....

The wet/dry sanding mentioned betore is for the leading-edge and large surface prep .... usually done by us " over achieving racers" or sailors w/ toooooooo much free-time on our hands looking for a "sailing fix" .........(most racers have "EPO's" since they are a stronger/stiffer rudder-blade and are higher performing ...)

A thought .... they have those kits for polishing oxided/fogged headlight lens .... "plastic/polymer" material ..... basically you are sanding/polishing away the oxide layer???? ... clear and SMOOTH surface results (to facilate efficent light transmission?) ... smooth surface???? ==> maybeeeeeeeee a possible technic?????

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HarryMurphey
H-18 mag/ #9458
Fleet 54 Div 11


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 Post subject: Re: Rudder hum
PostPosted: Thu Feb 17, 2011 9:16 pm 
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Joined: Mon Jul 14, 2003 7:11 pm
Posts: 5198
Location: Detroit, MI
Read this.


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 Post subject: Re: Rudder hum
PostPosted: Fri Feb 18, 2011 7:45 am 
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Joined: Mon Dec 31, 2007 6:06 pm
Posts: 610
Location: SE PA/ Chesapeak Bay
Very interesting "read" ......

I asked the question since I once had a "discussion" w/ a Hobie sailor/racer who stated that anything over 400-600grit was "overkill" .....

I quess I'll keep on using wet/dry sandpaper up to 2000grit, and then polish/waxing like I have been doing. I use a "random orbit" sander (compressed air powered) w/ the wet/dry, then switch to a buffing pad for the polishing compound using increasing amounts of water until it's only water .... and then a "wax only" buffing pad to apply the wax. I know that my white hulls do not get the brown "Chesapeak Grunge" as quickly if I keep them waxed ..... which is why I mainly thought was the reason .... it seems it's faster also .....

I have installed "mudflaps" on my trailers years ago to help prevent the trailer tires from throwing sh-t up on to my hulls while trailering ... both my earlier trucks/tow vehicles had them too ....

I know a well known Past National/International Hobie Champion (who happens to live near me) that used to always find the closest local "Automotive Self Power Wash" and wash/clean his boat after the long drive/trailering just before arriving at the regetta site .... (if he had enough quarters I think he would do his truck/tow vehicle also .... priorities...)

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HarryMurphey
H-18 mag/ #9458
Fleet 54 Div 11


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 Post subject: Re: Rudder hum
PostPosted: Thu Aug 20, 2015 11:24 am 
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Joined: Mon Sep 29, 2014 3:02 pm
Posts: 37
I love the hum off my 18... but then, I'm just screaming (literally) around a lake with the kids and not racing. I'm going to name the boat "Caterwaul" :-)


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