Losing Confidence

About six races in six years, with an average training period of three weeks before a race. That must put some serious loading on the drive and show my professional dedication to the elite racing circuit of recreational kayak races where I compete against 9 year olds and elite surfski competitors.

Roadrunner, in case you haven't noticed, there is a forum for AI racing and that is a Mirage Drive kayak which utilizes the Adventure design. If Hobie is hosting a racing forum but is not designing their product to be utilized as such, then they have problems in their board room.

Already retired and enjoying it.

Hosting a forum for discussion on an activity with our product does not make Hobie responsible for the way people use their product in that activity.

I think we have a really good product now. Many improvements over the years. What we can not do is judge the actual use like you can with an automobile. We can't say 30,000 miles or two years... So, how many miles or cycles do you think your drive endured? That would be good data.

Of course we will always listen and strive for improvements where possible... or come up with a way to set service standards. My truck tires didn't last the length of the truck's warranty period, but I didn't hold that against the truck manufacturer. We could determine that in heavy use, we need to recommend chain and mast replacement after a period of time... then again... no odometer.

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Matt Miller
Former - Director of Parts and Accessory Sales
Warranty and Technical Support
Hobie Cat USA
(Retired 11/7/2022)

Indeed, there have been many improvements over the years which have significantly increased the reliability of the products. A lot of those changes have been because regular users of your product provide feedback and identify problems. Leaking hull problems have been fixed. Snapping cables are a thing of the past. Failed bushings no longer a problem. The chain doesn't slip on the gears anymore. Pedals don't ruin the bottom of the feet anymore. The rudder engages now without stressing out the wrist, and there are plenty more improvements (assuming one has the latest model). Hobie has been actively addressing complaints and desires on this forum for a long time and I am very appreciative of that. That is why I leave feedback and keep buying pedal boats from Hobie. Yes, your Mirage products are pretty darn good now. Hopefully, Hobie will continue making improvements based on feedback to make Mirage kayaks even better. Meantime, I'll start carrying spare mast rods with me from now on.

In reference to mileage, the new unit that broke had 154 miles of use last year and 492 miles this year for a total of 646 miles. Hope that helps.

I am not abusing your product by using it regularly. This line of thought reminds me of treadmill machines. Treadmills are designed to be used by people. Some people do nothing but walk on them. Others run. Some people run really hard and are true competitive athletes. The wise company would design the treadmill to handle the range of human speed it can be subjected to. It would dumb to design a treadmill that can't go over 4 mph without breaking even though many people can run faster, especially if treadmill has a warranty. There is a limit to how fast humans can run. There is a limit to how fast and hard people can pedal. If they haven't already, Hobie should realize some people will be using Mirage pedal boats for fitness and even racing and design the drive unit to handle the human range.

If Hobie does NOT want us racing with Adventure kayaks, then tell me, what is the speed limit of the kayak that I should not exceed. Even so, a muscle man could still exert heavy stresses on the drive unit in a short burst of pedal energy that would not exceed that speed. So, maybe Hobie needs to put an ergometer on the Mirage Drive and tell us what max energy usage we are not to exceed. Yeah, that is rather ridiculous.

So, my suggestion is, Hobie should be responsible enough to beef up the strength of the drive unit design to overcome the additional pressures put on by the Hobie's new ST Turbo fins, or cease to sell the ST Turbo fins. Have you looked into cryogenic metal treatment or considered increasing the diameter of the rod where the breakages are occuring?

Great solution!!! So according to your thinking, because you continually break Mirage Drives, I won't be able to get any more ST Turbo fins?

Come on Rnykster. Let's be honest. This post has gone on long enough. You want Hobie to improve their boats, and Hobie has consistently told you, and demonstrated that they have been improving their boats. I think Hobie, and everyone on this forum is now well aware of the problems that you have had, and the solutions that you have proposed. Can we let it go now?

As an aside, I used to be a national level Track and Field sprinter. I have no doubt that I can create more force on these Turbo fins then most users on this forum. I have yet to break any part of the Mirage Drive. They're well built, and they're strong, and they work really well for a wide variety of users. I'm confident that Hobie has heard your complaints, it might be time to let it go and let them decide if it's worth their time or money to improve the pieces that you have suggested.

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Rnykster, what might help Hobie, is if you can tell them how many cycles you make to the mile, that way they might be able to tell you how often you need to replace the masts just like cyclists need to change chains.

If you work your dive hard enough to need tools to re-tension and repair your drive when out on the water, then I doubt you are a "normal user". Like most users I know, apart from bent masts, have never had to fix drives when out, and apart from washing and spraying with Inox or Lanox, only needed to check the drive masts etc roughly once a month.

The Turbo fins are a high performance fin, not standard. With any high performance part, the user needs to understand they have a limited life, and to keep those parts performing at their peak, they need to be changed regularly.
It would be great to see high performance rods developed, possibly a carbon/alloy shafts like in archery, only solid. Would I buy them or like to pay the extra, no, I do not need to and nor do most other users. If Hobie were to spend the money necessary to develop them, it would be for a very small minority market, they would have to pay a hefty price and being a performance part, you would still have to be ready to update them regularly.

what i have come to determine...the key to the Turbo fins is not to do a complete stroke. so you dont push the pedal all the way until it stops and then push the other pedal until its stops. you push till just before the stop...then you pull back while you push forward with the other pedal... i create much more power and speed this way and have never broken a mast. hopefully that makes sense haha. its like a bicyclist...most people only push down on the pedal stroke...if you talk to a pro racer...theyre working just as hard to pull that crank arm up as they are pushing it down...smooth and effective way to gain more power.

One thing to understand... mast diameter effects hydrodynamics. Larger masts would cause issues over this (fairly) small fin area. So, we are somewhat constrained on that point.

_________________
Matt Miller
Former - Director of Parts and Accessory Sales
Warranty and Technical Support
Hobie Cat USA
(Retired 11/7/2022)

Exactly. If Hobie doesn't beef up the design of the Drive Unit to handle the additional stresses put on by the ST Turbo fins, they SHOULD discontinue ST Turbo fins. It would be the responsible thing to do, although I would hope they choose to beef up the strength of parts instead.

Let's say a car is manufactured and the consumer is given two options on engine size - that is a great option. If some consumers who buy the larger engine are finding the universal joint breaking within the warrantee period at no fault of their own because they operated the vehicle normally, which might include an occasional foot on the floor acceleration, the manufacture would soon be replacing them at their cost. Only the manufacturer knows if this is a one in a million fluke or an actual problem. However, consumers should be made aware of the potential problem so they can be better prepared. This forum is great for exposing problems.

If someone gets hurts because they lose of control of their vehicle due a known part breakage problem, lawyers usually get involved. Roadrunner has confirmed that "typical" mast rod breakage is occurring in a specific place. Typical? To me, that would be an indication of a problem. Normally, the car manufacture recalls the appropriate vehicles to replace the bad batch of parts with a new batch that will not break. It is the responsible thing to do. My Mirage driven kayak is a mechanically powered water vehicle and it has been breaking down for years. (http://www.hobiecat.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=1692&start=15).

If I accidentally smash a drive unit fin against an underwater object (done that several times in the past) and something breaks, I am the one responsible for the damage. Too often though, I've had parts breaking on their own. I don't mind being a guinea pig (beta tester) for the redesign of products, but I do get a bit peeved when one fix leads to another problem which leads to another fix, which leads to another problem, etc.

Sorry about being on moody boat - I just want Hobie to hurry up redesigning the Mirage Drive unit so that it is rock solid whether one guns their leg engines or not. Mirage Kayaks, in my opinion, are for people to get up their pulse rate for some aerobic exercise and it helps if one paddles and pedals at the same time. There are people accusing me of abusing the Adventure by using it for aerobic activity. If Hobie doesn't want me to pedal the Adventure, then don't sell the Adventure with a Mirage Drive unit. Yes, very dumb idea.

How sad it is to see that some people in the Hobie community cannot recognize the Mirage Kayak as being one of the most wonderful stair-steppers in the world because of the scenery that goes by during exercise...

You are so right ELM - the current norm in this world is to be obese. I have no plan to be a "normal" lemming.

Even if the larger diameter is constrained to the short area that is experiencing stress fractures? Have you tried Titanium mast rods?

Rnykster, I have an iPhone that doesn't always work properly. Is it Apple's responsibility to tell me what design changes they're testing out, or not testing out? Would I expect Apple to tell me if I asked? Of course not!

Trust me. Hobie has heard your opinion, you've stated it countless times. Hobie is a privately held company, and they are not under any obligation to discuss potential design changes. You need to understand that even if they were to change the design, they're not going to discuss it on this forum until they are satisfied that it meets their requirements. Those requirements may, or may not, be up to your standards, and that's something that you will have to understand, and accept.

It really is time to drop this now.

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Up to my standards? If a car model has pistons that breaks regularly on some of the owners, who cares whose standard it is - it is breaking! Ever hear of the lemon law?

When manufacturers start documenting typical component breakages that could affect the safety of the consumer, there is usually a recall to fix or replace the problem component. If drive train components keep breaking on a certain car model, that is a serious issue because loss of power could endanger the driver or the nearby public. Yes, sitting in the water with broken mirage drive unit means loss of power and direction which in some areas, could be dangerous. Coastal zones with rock jetties and fast currents comes to mind.

Over the past 5-10 years, when there were cables or sprockets breaking regularly on my Mirage Drive units (before I ever attempted racing), Hobie never once contacted me to alert me of the potential breaking parts problem. I never saw a single post in these forums by Hobie alerting consumers of potential drive train breakage problems. Never have seen any recalls for defective Mirage Drives or components. Shhhhhh.

Yes, you are right, Hobie is a private company that does well in the hush-hush department. I have no expectations that Hobie should discuss potential design changes in these forums. They have engineers that deal with design changes and I'm positive that those engineers have taken feedback from these forums and incorporated some of them into the next generation of products. However, I would expect that if there starts to be a trend in part breakage in the drive train, that Hobie would alert us consumers to the potential problem so we can be prepared, you know, like by having spare parts on hand. Maybe I'm not in their database. The only time I learn of problems is when the broken drive unit is hanging limp in the drive well. Then I complain.

People keep saying I have high expectations, that I'm a super user and they are stunned at my audacity to complain because I supposedly use the product to extremes. According to my log, last year I used a brand new V2 drive 10 times from when I bought it in the first week in May through December. Does using the Adventure 10 times 8 months and not entering a single race make me a bad boy? "Bad Boy, Bad Boy, whatcha gonna do when Hobie breaks on you..." I will do the only thing I can - complain, complain, and complain.

You're right though augaug, Hobie has probably heard enough of my opinion by now. I'll shut up.

Though certainly paved with good intentions, this thread has progressed from poorly titled to ridiculous. But now that he has vowed to shut up, I'd like to reiterate that Rnykster is a long time forum member, a great competitor and a an equally outspoken Hobie advocate when he's not griping about the latest part he broke. Over the years he has brought out some good points that (IMO) have contributed to the improvement of the Mirage Drive.

It's great to hear his race reports when he's not being an over-the-hill "senior citizen". Even when competing against "capsized surf skis" and "9 year-olds", he's seriously one of few users that showcases the Mirage Drive's amazing capabilities relative to other kayaks. By doing this on the racing circuit where the bar is even, his achievements have helped establish a solid basis for Hobie's reputation for superior speed and range.

I value his contributions, if not always his methods. Keep up the great work "old" man!