The 'Schooner' AI or TI

Hey All
Just perusing my fave form of Nautical Porn:
"The 2011 Hobie parts Catalogue",

I've been looking at all sorts of ideas posted and those stuck in my head regarding adding a functional jib that would have the least amount of iinterference with the Main mast and sail.

Has anyone considered adding the smaller sail kit offered by Hobie in front of the Fore Hatch?

The kit comes with a 2 part mast and the sail (for around $400). As this sail does not furl, a simple unplug could be done and pulling it onto the tramps if the boat gets overpowered (or furl the Main and sail on the fore deck sail only.
The diameter of the Hobie sail kit mast is 15/16" (checked by my friendly Hobie Dealer at Alberni Outpost in Nanaimo, BC.
A closed end 1" PVC fitting could be used to extend from the deck and bolted throught the keel of the hull. With a bolted down deck collar around the deck, it should be adequately supported considering the 20.5 square foot jib sail. A simple block with a camcleat would be used on either side of the main hull to connect the jib sheet near the carrying handle (a jib car track could be used yet I think that would be overkill.

The Pros: Ability to point higher into the wind. Running downwind with a wing to wing sail configuration.
The Cons: At hull speed, the Main would have to be reefed to avoid excessive nosediving. More clutter on deck.
In consideration of both vessels, I would guesstimate that the Tandem would benefit the most for a rig setup such as this.

Your thoughts and/or suggestions would be welcomed.
Regards
Trinomite

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Always looking for ways to make good things 'Gooder'

The smaller sail kit was added centered on the front hatch on an AI. Sorry that I can't remember who did it. It was posted as a how to, will try to find it and post the link.

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Don't think this is quite what you are thinking but here is the link.
viewtopic.php?f=69&t=20991
S.Yoars did a very nice job but he had a "mishap" and seems to have retired the system.
It still looks really good.

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Hey Fly

Many thanks for that repost. You're right it's not quite what I had in mind.

Yet, you're right, nice job on his part.(I reads the whole post. His turn buckle system is righteous)

I'd hate to loose the functionality of the foredeck hatch as that is where a lot of light material (sleeping bag, towels are stored).

I used a simular type of schooner rig (fore deck mast being shorter than the Main Mast), on a 21 foot double sit-inside with V-shaped downwind sails. Of course in a downwind situation, a Ketch rig is more efficient (opposite of the schooner Mast arrangement). So I switched them around:

http://www.paddling.net/buyersguide/acc ... 80e15efeb2

http://www.paddling.net/buyersguide/acc ... D=174&cat=

Having the tack of the sail on the bow makes for more air flow entry efficiency, yet if the foremast was to be angled towards the Main Mast the airflow might improve as opposed to a vertical mast setup. Yet there are Cat rigged Schooners that seem to do quite well in that respect

http://www.sponbergyachtdesign.com/Globetrotter45.htm

I still think the vertical mast cat rigged jib will work. The added bonus is that you could also strip off the jib and run a micro gennaker with an uphaul from the deck (to the sail hidden inside the fore hatch, or better yet a large deck mounted stuff bag attached to the fore hatch)... to a micro block on the fore deck mast tip (remember that webbing loop up there). Run a guy wire from the fore deck mast tip to the Main Mast tip to spread the load attached to a swivel there so you can still furl the Main Sail: That way using the main sheet on an unfurled mainsail would control the entire rig for down wind rig tensioning. The super light weight gen sheets would be run back to the rear amas (Spectra Line). A gennaker can go as far as a broad reach before it becomes a pain on the rigging.

Alas the mast on the small sail addition is not carbon fiber. Ergo the need to tension the load to the aft deck via the guy wire and onto the main sheet rigging.

http://northsails.com/SailProducts/Crui ... fault.aspx

Now that could be more fun than a pile of humans greased up in a barrel.

CAUTION ALL! This is an unproven setup. Do with this info what you will, at your own expense without blame.

Thanks again for your input, m8
Trinomite

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Always looking for ways to make good things 'Gooder'

Oh Yah, another thought much more simpler than the last

Disregard the foremast and run the Gennaker up the main with enough room to clear the head of the sail beyond the fore mast.

No need for any bullsheit with guy wires. You simply will have a bit of an unstable Down Wind Sail. Main advantage is that your original Mast is Carbon fiber and less mess up high. You are also keeping the stress closer to the middle center of your vessel

If you are daring enough, you could also consider running the jib at the same time in light winds. Remember though, these boat like to pretend that they are submarines at high speed....

Yup that's the key...light winds (which I live with here a lot)

In strong winds you could really end up getting messed up (including pitch poling, a dismasting and all sorts of other unpleasantries.

(This is advanced sailing on an experimental level. A spinnaker usually has a pole to stabilize the sail. a Gennaker is an asymmetrical spinnaker without a pole. It takes careful sail handling to use these sails, especially on a SailYak this small)

(As the sign in the fine crystal shop said: Elephants (and their owners) are welcomed in this store at any time; however if you break it, you have just become the owner of your own fine sense of proper judgement)

Cheers
Trinomite

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Always looking for ways to make good things 'Gooder'

Just in case you wondered?

It's easy as roller blades to get the Gennaker up into the wind...
almost. You need to figure out in your head where all the lines are for normal sailing and then factor in how the downwind sail control lines (3 of them) to ensure you don't end up with a parachute wrapping itself around your mast(s).
The lightest material would need to be used to make up any spinnaker type sail for the Islands.
However, the lighter it is the harder it is to get the launch just right (static electricity can build up quickly on very light material as you launch it and cause a rather sticky situation.)
The other nasty is how to get the damned thing back down if you need to go the other way??
Most Gennakers have a sort of a fabric pipe called a snuffer to close the sail and squeeze the wind out of it. This of course means standing rigging on a monohull or multihull, which we just don't have on the Islands.
I would think, that by spilling the wind from one loose sheet you can simply stuff it into the bag from where it came from. that used to work for me on a 27 foot mono
No matter what you use, you will have a handfull when you try to tame the bucking beast.
It just makes it that more 'funner'

Regards
Trinomite

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Always looking for ways to make good things 'Gooder'

hey All

This is what I had in mind:

http://s1199.photobucket.com/albums/aa4 ... ited-3.jpg

S. Yoars, I hope you don't take offense at my Photoshop efforts on your Image.
However it was the most expedient way to show what I have in mind.

Edited: The fore mast may require a fore stay simply to keep the Aluminum Mast from bending too far in relations to the Main Mast. (alum and carbon fiber have different amount of flex on an upwind journey).

Thanks
Fred

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Always looking for ways to make good things 'Gooder'

Fred :
Most of the stuff you are describing to do, I did to my TI well over a year ago now, and have many miles on the boat now with no major issues. If you go to the Hobie forum post (The ultimate Tandem Island (hydrofoils,spinnaker,jib,etc) viewtopic.php?f=69&t=33720 it goes into great detail explaining the super simple designs which would work equally well on an AI or TI. Before making the bigger jib I used an old Hobie kayak sail for a while and it worked great ( was a little small for the TI but would be perfect for an AI). I haven't made any additional changes since then, I just use it as is, though I would like to replace the assymetric spinnaker with a bow sprit and a roller furled screacher or furlable gennaker (similar to the furling screacher on the WETA boats, I'm designing it now and have the material).

My total sail area is similar to both the WETA, and the Windrider 17, which are both nice boats. The WETA is much smaller than the TI and the WR17 is comparable in size. I'm just guessing but assume my performance to be comparable to either. However my total costs to date on the boat are around $5,200 (including the motor) I think the other boats are double and triple that cost and couldn't see myself car topping either one, or kayaking up a river in either of them.

You are correct, with more sail the bow can nose dive under water and doesn't always come back up again ( I call it nautilus mode), thats why I added the hydrofoils. But I've only nosedived a couple times, it turned out to not be as bad a problem as I thought. The boat doesn't pitchpole, it just slows down until you can get the bow up again (and you get really wet), I just turn on the hydrofoil and the bow raises back up.

The jib makes a huge difference, I simply don't understand why nobody has them. When I first got the boat I would go out in 5-8 mph winds (typical around here) and got bored pretty fast with just the mainsail putzing along at 3-4 mph and had little success going upwind much closer than 45 degrees (maybe I'm just a really bad sailer).

Many of the dive sites and Islands we go to are 5-10 miles out, I'd much rather get out there at 15-17 mph than 5-6. When the boat is loaded down with two adults and 4 scuba tanks, and gear we are right at the 600 lbs capacity, we can only get up to around 12 mph max when loaded heavy, in heavy seas the speed goes down more because the boat itself is very light. Still no match for a Hobie Cat

I don't think I would put on a jib without a roto furler or not being able to furl the mainsail. Often when I come into harbor I furl the main and come in on just the jib (better control around all the other boats). The boat will sail 5-6 mph on just the jib alone. BTW it's pretty easy to make a roto furler for the standard Hobie kayak sail from 1 1/2" PVC (plenty of postings about it on the forum). I'm also pretty sure any of the furling jibs for the H14, H16, (maybe H17, getaway) would mount right on and work very well on a TI, I would love to find a used one.

My assymetric spinnaker looks similar to the G2 gennaker rig on the northsails web site you linked. It works well anywhere 90 to 270 degrees. It's ripstop nylon , and I don't like to fly it in over 15 mph winds. My design I think lifts the bow more than a G2 gennaker would. What I don't like about my sail is it collapses at anything closer than 90 degrees and begins to flutter, I would prefer something thats good to under 70 degrees (slightly upwind, where a screacher would shine, but the screacher wouldn't be as good downwind).

If you end up adding a jib I recommend you make a bra to fit over the bow (like shown on my post) made from nylon strapping, It's tied to the AKA crossbar (strongest point on any boat), so the bow of the boat doesn't take all the sail load. I'm pretty sure if you tie your jib to the lifting lug you would eventually tear it off. There are no changes to my boat itself currently. The original hull was replaced a while ago (torn scupper holes) and I didn't fill the replacement hull bow with epoxy (didn't need it). There are no holes drilled or modification to the boat itself (Hypocritic oath, no changes to the boat itself, just like doctors LOL)
I only made these mods for my own purposes and don't recommend anyone modify their boat unless they really know what they are doing, and willing to take the risks involved.

On your followup pic, it's my opinion that the jib is too close to the mainsail and will fowl the air going over the mainsail, I think having the bottom of the jib sail as far forward as possible keeps clear air around the mainsail (that's why I'm thinking about adding a bow sprit, to get my genaker another foot further forward in cleaner air). Hope this helps
Bob

Fred:
If your going to use a Hobie kayak sail, if you buy the version of their sail that is intended for the inflatable kayaks, they come with stays for the mast (because the inflatable mast holders are not strong enough). But I don't think you can use a furler with the stays.
Bob

Bob

I know this post took a long time to write and I feel in debt to you.

I have looked at your customized rig, and anyone with 2 lobes can figger out this was a ton of work (plus being able to 'splain it, I cannot thank you enough for your time and effort as an inspiration and as the 'Canary in the Coal Mine'.

In all honesty, I have the means to buy anything up to a 50 footer. Yet that is not where my happy place lives...

When the hull gets big, you loose the connections with the water. That truly sucks for me.

I'm really tired tonight. so let's discuss the finer points on the 'morrow.

Your logic and craftsmanship to convert your boat is a given.
As customizing is so personal, this thread could go on forever.

Best Regards
Fred

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Always looking for ways to make good things 'Gooder'

Yah still have a bit of life yet, Bob

Yah I spent 6 hours today to pull apart the Hobie Cat PDFs and yes a sliding fore sail platform would be far more efficient to launch (and use the platform to rest and retrieve a jib and gennaker.)

Yet there is a limit on these Kayaks that can't really plane.

No plane (Boss); we are trying to redesign the oval wheel, imo

Recolon designed a killer spray shield that has gotten world wide attention.

(I hinted to him that a solid foil based on his designs might work)

The Anti-pitch-pole foil from the Hobie 14/16 won't fit the Islands. (from Admin)

You know, I respect your determination to get Job 1 done, Bob.

Yet maybe starting with an entire new design on the center hull might just be the key.

ie: Who says that the center hull has to be a kayak? It just makes the 'New vessel' a lot more specific as a sailing Tri as opposed to a wish for all boat.
If it was that 'perfect' for all the people who bought a TI or AI, why are they glued to this Forum looking for ways to customize the boat(s) for their own needs?)

BTW: Political Correctness is not one of my stronger points. I tell no lies, as I don't share bullsheit when it comes to your own life support system under your own ass.

Take care, Buddy
Fred

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Always looking for ways to make good things 'Gooder'