Cuss, Cuss, Cuss

I would interject here that Hobie has marketed the drive in a way that would promote high-energy pedaling. I suspect we've all seen the videos of a Hobie pulling against one or two world-class paddlers. Obviously, that's just a promo to show how much power those two cute little fins can generate, but it is suggestive of support for competitive and powerful pedaling. At least it is for me.

Based upon what I am reading here, it would seem that the more powerfully one pedals, the more deflection the shafts would experience. The science is interesting and suggests that an experiment or some math could tell us where the sweet spot lies. The key question being how much pressure can be applied to the shafts without exceeding their yield strength, and what that translates to in terms of cadence and forward velocity. I would guess that pushing through water is more exponential than linear in terms of force increase for an increase in velocity. You probably don't have to drop speed much to reduce the force into the safe range, but I don't know nor do I know the formulas that would allow me to model it.

In terms of looking at stronger metals, don't forget that the whole drive is based upon the shafts that are currently provided. If you switch to a shaft that would snap before bending, albeit at a higher force application, then the shaft might remain straight while some other part of the drive was being snapped off. Make a super strong shaft and you'll have the opportunity to find out what the next weakest part of the system is. Personally, replacing a shaft once in a while seems like a less expensive alternative.

-bob

bsee: I agree with you 100 percent, adding the shaft design below may force the unit to fail at the next weakest link in the chain (under racing conditions), so it's likely many more parts would need to be re-engineered and custom built for extreme racing.

Rnykster :
Here is a design for a racing version of the Hobie Mirage shaft made from 414 or 420 stainless steel hardened and PVD coated. This shaft design does not exceed the yield thrength of the metal. The larger 5/16 diameter near the top should fit into your existing fin ( I tried it and it works, you might need some teflon grease to get it in though). I advise adding a small radius at the base of the thread before heat treat to help lessen the extreme stress at the base of the thread, and make sure the flange is bottomed out on the brass fitting. Take to any metal shop to have built (they will also verify the design and stresses for you (any PE can do this)). Also make sure it's polished with no imperfections on the surface. Now win some races with it.

Bob

Bob, nice analysis on the metallurgy! Your innovative and technical talents are amazing -- it's sure great to have you as a forum member!

I have a Drive set aside for use in racing. Some of the Hobie parts are modified -- masts are pre-bent for a larger sweep and last about 200 miles reliably. Any new parts are fully tested at least once before a race to flush out any possible defect and make sure they are well seated. So far there haven't been any surprise failures. In any event, I take full responsibility for the longevity of these parts.

In Rnykster's case, I think stock Hobie parts are plenty strong for him for a certain period of time before he wears them out or induces them to fail. For example, he knows that he gets 800 miles+ reliably from his masts, so if he put new stock masts on for $35 per pair, he should be in great shape for any race. Same thing with cables. In fact, since he already has a spare Drive, why not stock it with fresh parts and keep it for racing?

Rnykster realizes that he operates in a highly erosive marine environment that shortens the lifespan of his Drive components. He also acknowledges that his great success in racing comes from his Mirage Drive and Turbofins. Perhaps it's a love-hate relationship -- or maybe its just his way of encouraging Hobie to continue making improvements the best way he knows how.

To answer your earlier question, I think it's great that he races and I thoroughly enjoy his racing reports. I would only suggest that when reporting his victories he could find a more positive title than "Cuss Cuss Cuss" -- maybe something like "Hobie Rocks Again"!


Kal, I think you're the only one here who can pedal 24 hours straight. No doubt, you'll have an excellent race! Best of luck!!

Well if we take away the extra 0,5 to 1 mph that comes from the additional paddling that gives 4,8-5 mph down to 4,3-4,5 mph.

For me a desired cruising speed is 4,3-4,7 mph. This is not racing for me, but ordinary desired cruising speed. Just now I am fit enough to keep that speed for about 3 hours. When it is racing (the longer the better) I would try to keep 4,7-5 mph for as many hours as needed.

I don´t see a big difference. Does this mean that my ordinary normal use of my Adventure exceeds what it is built for?

Are there any real tests done?

What causes the wire and the mast to break?
Is it corrosion or stress over time? Or both?
If both, what is the main cause?
Are we guessing or do we know?

Even if you don´t race your kayak, I think that occasionally you have to put just the same power on the Mirage drive as Rnykster. Every AI have more drag in the water. If you try to avoid bad weather while out offshore fishing. There are many times when you need to go faster.
Everyone should be interested in durability and maintenance requirements. When to replace a critical part etc. Or do you wait until it breaks due to costs?

Keep on Racing Rnykster!

BR thomas

I agree with this to 100%!
But I am still worrying about damages to the hull and drive well. They are hard to repair correct.

br thomas

Why not make him part of the R&D effort this seems to be the guy that can show you where you have any weaknesses because if somethings gonna fail he's gonna be the one to get it to happen, we mere mortals cannot get our body's to function at that level.

_________________
Fastfish/Geoff
Kayaks Owned>Outback/Mine & Revolution/Wife

I have been fly fishing, since I was 12 years old and have never broken a flyrod with regular use. One came out of the case and with a false cast without a line on/in the rod, the top 6 inches popped of the end of the rod and went into the river. That was an obvious manufacturer flaw and Sage replaced the tip.

With that same rod a younger and very powerful relative broke so many tips at the same point with the same rod manufacturer, we made it into a 9' rod instead of a 9'6" rod. A decade later, that shortened rod still works and is intact.

That same power stud drove a major sporting good chain and a major rod manufacturer for Salmon rods from a boat up a wall. He busted/exploded 3 rods in 3 trips in one month, which were replaced by the store.

I went out Salmon fishing with him, and we had the same rod brand/model. I had caught two 30# Salmon and landed them safely, when I heard what I thought was a rifle shot. My young relative had a strike and set the hook so hard and fast, his rod shattered/exploded leaving him with just a rod stub and the handle and reel. We had to cut the line to save his reel. He wanted to use my rod, and I refused. He busted two more rods from the Captain's supply before he got basically a deep sea broom stick rod from the captain and limited out.

I did have one fly rod that kept breaking off the reel seat and dropping the reel into the creek. It was a light weight rod, and I was getting into some trout in the 8-10#+ in tight quarters, and between the big trout, tight quarters and my limited power, the reel seats were breaking off. I made a deal with the company not to use that rod in those waters after their third replacement. It still works over a decade later for normal size trout.

Flash forward a few years/a little over a decade ago, and I had gotten into the Spey/Two Handed fly rods, and went to the International Speyorama in Golden Gate Park. There were professional Spey Rod casters from around the world. About every 30 minutes we would hear the cracking sound similiar to a rifle shot, and one of the casters had literally blown up one the heavy and what should be indestructable Spey rods.

I sat back and watched the show. The classic long distance casters were usually a little over 6' and not muscled up. In many years of going to the Speyorama, I never saw one of these pros blow up a rod.

The guys exploding the rods were built like my younger rod exploding relative. All were a solid two hundred pounds of muscle and up. Many had wrestled, boxed or played rugby or football and were solid chunks in great shape. They would bust the rods in getting the line out or after getting a 100' plus of heavy Spey line out, explode the rod in during a Classic cast. Their team members of the classic 6' and not over muscled builds never broke a rod that I can remember.

A custom rod maker, who has made several custom two handed rods for me, which have never broke in spite of hard use by me, watched the carnage and has never come back to Speyorama. Instead, he brings his rods to the various Spey Claves around the NW for the rest of us to try. I don't think he has had a rod break in any of the claves except for Pilot error where the caster tried to cut a tree limb with a rod or someone stepped on a rod or shut a car door on it.

Last, but not least, look at the really big guys playing pro baseball these days, and how many bats are broke by these 6' 6"+ 250+ pound pros.

If a fly rod or deep sea rod maker, bat maker or kayak maker made their products to stand up to the most powerful and quickest 1-2% users of their sports, the rest of us would not be able to afford their bullet proof products.

_________________
2009 Oasis
2012 Freedom Hawk Pathfinder

You are obviously not talking about me! I am 58 years old and weight 82 kilo, and they are not all muscles (anymore).
Still, I repeat, for me a desired cruising speed is 4,3-4,7 mph. It is not about big muscles and over power. More stamina and endurance.
Of course, if you keep a good/high cruising speed for many hours, something is going to be worn out. People who is racing or go long distance tours with the Hobies, will be the first ones to know. People who go out in the highest waves and the strongest wind, will be the first ones to know.

In order to make the Hobie Kayaks better and not more expensive, you need to analyze the experience from people that encounter breakdowns. We now have a grey rudder pin in a better material than before. Does that make the kayak more expensive?

I use my experience to buy the right spare parts and the right tools to bring with me on longer touring and in case of racing. I am learning by reading this forum and by checking my own kayak how to avoid breakdowns at sea.

For me, Rnykster is racer and a kayaker that belongs to the group of "first to know" where the weak spots are.

If all fishing rods thru time were handled by old ladies in their late eighties, there would be no rods for a normal built man.

thomas

You were doing okay until that quote.

Again, if our sporting equipment was designed for your needs and those who shred and destroy their normal products, few of us could afford the gear. In the past couple of years, we have seen many of the so called top end Fly rod makers go broke or they have come up with rods and reels for the rest of us at prices we can afford.

Loop Rods/Reels makers in your country has apparently realized that their top end gear is priced too high for the average buyer. Recently, we are seeing authorized sales on their rods and reels. Like Hobie, they never had a sale unless they discontinued a product. Lately their top/professional casters are touring our country holding demos. The retailers sponsoring the demos are offering excellent discounts in the 30% off on Loop products if you buy Loop gear at the demos. Also, Loop has increased their rod/reel options, so the average guy not some 80 year old woman can possibly afford their excellent products.

I agree with you, companies which improve their products need the top enders like you and the gentleman, who started this thread to push their products to their end to improve their products for the rest of us over time.

They can't produce their products aimed at the top 1-2% and stay in business. Which is why some of the smart producers get gear in the hands of someone like me to try and evaluate for the bigger markets.

_________________
2009 Oasis
2012 Freedom Hawk Pathfinder

But we do pay attention / listen as we did in this case. We added a process to the mast production to minimize the potential rust pitting which was seen as a potential cause of his failures.

_________________
Matt Miller
Former - Director of Parts and Accessory Sales
Warranty and Technical Support
Hobie Cat USA
(Retired 11/7/2022)

No I think that we need to redefine what is normal use.
I am for sure not one of "powerful and quickest 1-2% users".
You are trying to diminish problems to something that only applies to a very small group of very extreme users, hopefully just two, me and Rnykster.

"shred and destroy"? Are you serious? Are we talking about kayaks?

I am truly sorry for what I said about old women and fishing rods. I don´t know anything about fishing gear.
What I meant, was just that if none, never really put any stress whatsoever on a fishing rod, there will be no development and therefore no durable fishing rods on the market. Even if you got the money to pay for it.

So you think we are just two (2!). My point is that normal use maybe includes more stress on the gear (and I am talking about Hobie kayaks not fishing gear) than you might think. If you are out on a nice fishing tour and suddenly gets into bad weather. Maybe you need to get in safety in a hurry. Or if you need to tow a friend some miles, then you also need some power pedaling. Who wants a breakdown at open sea? Do you really think I am the only one who wants to cruise above 4 mph.
I am no top ender. I consider myself as a normal user, most of the time.

Are you really worried that Hobie will produce "bullet proof" kayaks that "normal" people cannot afford?

@Matt Miller
I know Hobie pay attention. Therefore we now have the grey rudder pin. The new drums with the steel reinforcement I welcome. And I don´t think that the kayaks got more expensive, just better.
BTW I am not so worried about the Mirage Drive, it consist of replaceable parts. I just have to learn how to maintain them right and when to replace them with new ones. But I don´t like photos of cracks in fore of the drivewell. And I have seen lots of them.

thomas

A lot? We had a very small percentage (of production) of failure like that, but we do make a LOT of boats. That one we resolved some time ago... nearly if not 100% at this point. We see few if any failures like that these days.

_________________
Matt Miller
Former - Director of Parts and Accessory Sales
Warranty and Technical Support
Hobie Cat USA
(Retired 11/7/2022)

I refer to photos like "raspacejo"s in another thread, I think you know what I am talking about. It is nice to hear that the percentage is very small but I think the percentage will increase if you only count Adventure and Adventure Island.

And according to Grampa Spey, I am an extreme user, a top ender, that is one of the "most powerful and quickest 1-2% users". Also one "who shred and destroy their normal products". Therefore I am a little concerned about this hull stresspoint. I did not say weak point.

thomas

Yes, I do understand... again, what you refer to is mostly history. We are not seeing many of that type of failure these days. We have made many changes over the years and continue to refine the process.

_________________
Matt Miller
Former - Director of Parts and Accessory Sales
Warranty and Technical Support
Hobie Cat USA
(Retired 11/7/2022)