Letter to President of Hobie Doug Skidmore

I fish open ocean for pelagics. I have seen others on the Hobie forum that do also. Plus many are getting turned on by the Adventure's touring capability including the Island version.

On another forum kfs at:

http://kfs.infopop.cc/eve/forums/a/frm/f/948607442

there have ben many discussions on the need for an ocean going kayak that provides an internal storage space to keep your catch cool.

Here's a letter to the President of Hobie, Doug Skidmore for doing away with the tankwell for the Adventure configured for open ocean or touring. You will still have storage space for your gear, but your catch now becomes protected. Please note Revo comments on market size.

Mr. Doug Skidmore
President Hobie Cat
4925 Ocean Blvd
Oceanside, CA 92056-3044

Aloha Doug

I own an Adventure, and would like to buy the Adventure Islander for open ocean fishing, but your design has nowhere to put large pelagic fishes like the enclosed photo.

In fact one of the more knowledgeable kayak posters on the Kayak Fishing shop (KFS ) forum (where you developed some serious specs for the Revolution) summarizes the problem thusly:

As this sport matures I'm certain that we'll begin to see American-made poly yaks designed more for speed AND fishing. You will note that not one single poly "fishing" yak has a designated place to put your catch. I mean, how utterly stupid is that? The on-deck bags are a pain-in-the-arse (plus they don't hold ice very long), and a cooler in the tank well is too small for most saltwater fish (snook, reds, cobia, permit).

I would add to the above species mahi mahi, ono (yahoo) ahi (tuna) and small marlin.

What is needed for open ocean fishing instead of a tankwell is access to interior space for both fish and gear.

Consider that elimination of the Adventure tankwell would provide interior space for pelagic fish storage to prevent the fish from "cooking" during return from long trips, an Adventure capability outside the realm of fat slow, heavy primary stability inshore kayaks. The deck would keep the sun off an inside stored fish bag, that with some ice and salt doubles as a carrier for both at sea and for the drive home.

The bag would also provide storage for cold drinks and frozen bait.

More importantly note that for the touring market, the advertised market for the Adventure on the Hobie web site, the center of gravity, CG, of the load is dropped four inches when the tankwell is liminated. Something I am sure your designers would love to play with. Those in manufacturing should also welcome the elimination of the problem of drawing enough plastic pellets to the scupper hole supports which can be discarded. This also provides more internal space without "chopping" it up with columns.

Just be sure the covered space has a large hatch immediately behind the kayaker that is large enough to accommodate the head of a bull mahi mahi, etc. The South African kayak designers have done the best job here for building in fish boxes and internal access, but I think you can beat them with better hatch design and location of specific access (fish aft, gear in front of seat, and forward).

Again going back to the touring market, an optional bubble hatch could be provided for additional gear storage. With either hatch, by keeping gear inside you provide a better dry factor and safety from loss in high sea versus strapped in gear in a tankwell.

This one modification thus helps both manufacturing, touring and fishing. I can't see any reason those interested in the Adventure Island for sailing recreation would object.

Storing of gear inside instead of topside is a must for penetrating surf, fighting pelagic, and dealing with rough weather that sneaks up on you on long trips. I believe the gear problem can be solved with specific flip up hatches fwd to internal storage racks for spare rods, killing spears (kage), gaffs, drift chutes, and the like. I'd be happy to discuss this aspect with your designers.

You shrunk the Adventure back to the Revolution in response to KFS discussions. You did a good job, but the Revolution addresses the freshwater and coastal markets.

Not the open ocean market. Admittedly this market is smaller. But if your staff is at all familiar with KFS discussion the need for a fast fishing ocean kayak in the 16-18 foot range has not been satisfied by US manufacturers.

I hope you can get Hobie to satisfy this need.

Sincerely

Kudos to LunaSea whose words in bold above have haunted me since they were writen.

If you have any constructive additions to the above letter that may influence such a design please post here.

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Having just completed a long river touring trip, I agree that a large hatch rather than the tankwell would be more desirable. There is a lot of interior storage space in the Adventure but it has the disadvantage that much of it is difficult to access and/or can only accomodate relatively small objects. For example, the inside space underneath and alongside the tankwell can take many small objects but is difficult to access. A large hatch would make packing of camping gear much easier.

Also, I prefer to have my gear inside the hatches for security reasons when having to leave the kayak on shore when other people are about. Gear on the tankwell would be more of a temptation and easier to take than gear that is out of sight in the hatch.

As a separate issue, could latches be attached to the large hatches to make them lockable?

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Dan,

I was alerted of your post on our forum last week and then I received your letter via post yesterday regarding your thoughts about pelagic fishing and having storage for the big ones that you catch.

I just wanted to let you know that we are listening and I read your comments with interest. As you know we like to listen to what is needed in the market place and where holes have not yet been filled. I have fished for albacore, yellowtail and bonito offshore here in S. Cal but I have to admit it was on a private boat each time where we had a nice cooler or other facility on board to store the fish we caught. I can certainly see the benefit of having somewhere to put the big ones.

The letter you sent me will be used as a point of discussion in our next "new products" meeting and we will toss the idea around to see what is feasible and how we may be able to address this. Keep in mind that I am not guaranteeing that we will address your request, however depending on how it fits on our priority list you may see some action on this coming up.

We appreciate your interest in our products and I also love the picture of you with the mahi mahi. I hope you were able to get it home unspoiled.

Safe travels and bountiful fishing,

Doug Skidmore

WTG Dan,
Nothing like going to the top to get some attention! Good letter!! My compliments to Mr. Skidmore and Hobie for being so receptive to their fan (user!) base. The Revo pretty well satisfied my needs and desires, but because of my reconstructed knee, I am still looking for a Revo-type craft (Kevlar, carbon-fiber???) with about the weight of my Sport. I never thought it would make that much difference, but when I heave the Sport around to stack/store/trailer/launch it, and then try the same maneuvers with my Outback, the ole knee screams for mercy. Not a problem to pedal either since I wear a knee brace, but even the knee brace can't make up for the lack of cartilage when I have to lift or carry the heavier yaks, even over a short distance.

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Somebody makes "live bags", that you can put your fish and ice into to preserve the fish. These bags are flexible and would be well suited to the irregular shape of the interior of a kayak. Of course, any phelagic phisherman knows that bringing a fish like a marlin on board, while still alive, has some inherent danger. Killing a hundred pound or less billfish is not going to get you much respect from serious phelagic phishermen that I know.
As far as ice goes, any bicycle rider or backpacker can tell you that water(including ice), weighs about eight pounds a gallon, so how much would a open ocean fisherman, perhaps launching through treacherous surf with all your other gear, is going to take?
Now, I'm not the world's greatest fisherman, but I did manage to catch a few yellowtail(I think they might be phelagic) that weigh about thirty pounds. That doesn't sound like that big of a fish, but I doubt they would fit in the front hatch of my Quest, which does not have a Mirage drive, with my other gear stowed below deck that I need for ocean angling. In fact, the fish barely fit in the cockpit of the kayak, making padding to shore against the current and swell quite a chore. You can say you have a Mirage drive, which is faster than paddling, but try to pedal with a thirty pound fish between your legs. Kind of why I go for catch and release.
Another thing you might consider; a fish bleeding all over the place, like from a gaff or killing spear(for my Island bros) is going to attract attention, even if you hurry and stash it into a brine cooler, refrigerator or live bag. Birds, seals/sea lions and sharks that are in the vicinity are going to come and have a look. This season I had an eight foot mako or whitey check me out while I was catching 9" mackerel for bait less than 100 yards from the beach. I've seen 15' plus hammerheads while fishing offshore for albies and tuna. Dead fish=dead fish eaters. One drop of fish blood, start looking around.
You can't have everything on a kayak, that's why Indy cars don't have camper shells. If you've ever fished off a surfboard, a 13' kayak seems like a luxury liner.
Apalach-Sorry to hear your knee blew out, join the club. That issue addressed in another post. As far as the space age materials for kayaks, don't hold your breath unless you win the Lotto. Carbon graphite is indeed super light, but super expensive and hard to work with. The resin needed for maximum strength with carbon has issues with heat and sunlight, something that's not a big plus for a boat. Americas Cup yachts, sure, but they spend most of the time in their berth under wraps. Also, carbon is "notch sensitive", that is, a nick or scrape can turn into a crack or corrupted fiber matrix very quickly. Also, any interface between carbon and metal will create a "galvanic response", a situation similar to the old carbon batteries with a carbon "+" post and zinc case. This condition has a tendency to weaken the area around the carbon/metal interface due to the electric current.
Since everyone is posting long, long, long posts, this is mine.
Attn: Dick Skidmore-I'm right down the road from you, if you ever want to go fishing, let me know. We can check things out first hand.

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Waterman at Work - Kayak Fishing Photos, Video,Kayak Rigging - Blog

Aloha Doug

Thanks for your reply.

To see top management concern about products is refreshing to say the least.

I'll keep posting a few ideas here that you can add to those staff meetings about eliminating the tankwell and getting more internal storage for gear.

Here's another reason. Users are going to push the limits on the Island. For example:

dwest has already posted here in the sailing forum about a planned trip to Catalina island. Elsewhere on KFS gwiz is running offshore in 20 knot winds.( For your convenience gwiz's first sailing report is posted below.) For complete info see.

http://tinyurl.com/mgona

Others such as myself are looking at adopting fishing techniques such as a Greenstick to kayak use.

The Island will thus see rougher waters at higher speeds. Exposed gear, fish bags, etc will be more vulnerable than inside the hull. Assuming you can come up with the right sized hatches, that are watertight, but quickly opened and closed, internal storage provides get greater gear security from weather.

Again thanks and I hope mbrem and others will post additional ideas on this subject.

I did get that fish ashore in time. It was topped by another kayaker a few weeks later who hooked up a 48lb. So indeed, I am looking for even more bountiful fishing !!

Dan


gwiz Island report

Just got in from a full day of sailing and man was it ever a blast. Winds were kicking up to about 20 mph with swells of 5' to 6' about 3 miles out. It was alot like riding a runaway roller coster.

The island is more sea-worthy than I. It will knife right through an 6' swell you and the sail however will not fare quite so well. I drank a lot of salt water today. As far as submerged amas go they don't really seem to have much drag, but the sail and my face sure do.

Matt if you read this I do have one suggestion for hobie if they want to hang on to their customers they need to put a seat belt on that thing. The little strap in the fanny pack isn't enough.

It could really use a much bigger rudder when sailing in heavy seas. The problem I had was with each swell I encountered I would lose rudder control for long enough that the yak would nose into the wind a little more than could be corrected for before the next wave and more loss of control. After about 3 to 4 waves it would wind up dead into the wind and waves. The problem seemed to be much more with right rudder than left but that may well have been because of wind and wave direction.

I still haven't found a good place for the paddle I finally took it apart and put it under the back straps. I took my camera, a non water proof kodak, out in my waterproof bag but couldn't get it to work in the bag and didn't dare open the bag out in the water I did get a couple of shots with it pulled up on shore but nothing special.

Everything else worked great and comes very well packaged with a bag for the sail that is long enough to store it on the mast and a bag for the amas supports with foam spacers to keep them from getting scared up while in the bag. I sprung for the new fatty wheels and am very glad I did. They will even go over a good size curb which is amazing considering how small they are.

I did have one small problem with one of the amas support holes in the outrigger, it was deformed enought at the bottom to prevent the support from fully seating into its hole. I went back to the dealer and we used a heat gun to soften it up enough to force the support into the hole, it is still a little tight and I had a heck of a time getting it off. I will probably take sandpaper to it next.

All in all I have to say thank-you hobie I really feel it was 3 grand well spent even though it means I will be driving my beatup old 87 Isuzu pup for a couple more years. One other thing is that it is a real bear to put up on top of a 7' tall van by yourself. Do-able but just barely especially after about 8 hours of heavy duty sailing. I am plumb tuckered out.
qwiz i'm a happy sailor [/i]

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The concept of a bubble hatch would be quite possible with the Adventure by simply making an insert that fits inside the cargo well. It could extend aft over the deck as well for extra length, and bungee down. The leading edge could be made tall enough to stow an extra drive unit while not interfering with the backrest function.

Advantages -- scuppers still functional, so no drainage problems for the hull. Portable for easy cleaning and transport.

Disadvantages -- would raise the center of gravity somewhat. Might preclude an aft Sidekick mount. Would temporarily make the rear hatch inaccessible.

Doug

The need for inside storage through a surf launch is illustrated pretty well at:

http://kfs.infopop.cc/eve/forums/a/tpc/ ... 5671037082

Some areas that might be the first wave of going through a set of 3-4 similar sized ones.

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I'm coming from another side of this discussion in that I think the tankwell is about perfect and shrinking it or removing it altogether would negate my desire to have an Adventure at all. My Big A tankwell is chock-a-block with gear for the type of fishing I do.

We see our share of meat hunters here on the left coast and I've kept a few small pelagics myself. My main fishing adventures (heh) are catch and release bass hunting (saltwater bass). If there was some kind of large hatch behind me in the Adventure instead of an open tank well I'd have nowhere for a livewell, rod holders (I need 5 rod holders behind me plus a space for a net), gaff, drift chute, tackle boxes (some can fit below decks in my round hatch but not all), etc.

The fact that we have the Mirage drive necessitates having large storage areas behind the angler as the rad fishing friendly decks found on other boats such as the OK Prowler or Malibu Extreme can't be replicated on our limited cockpits.

If I was going after pelagics every day I might agree with you and prefer some kind of enclosed storage as I'd only need two rods, a gaff and little else. The more technical fishing that we bass anglers participate in, and the tournaments we fish in require more gear than that, and a place to put it.

If we practiced catch and release on big pelagics we wouldn't even need this discussion.

I don't see why you couldn't store all that gear under deck with access by the hatch. You certainly don't need any fish space if your doing C&R, or very little for the ocassional one you might keep. Or get a Revolution. Probably better for those small fish anyway.

But If we practiced catch and release on big pelagics we wouldn't even need this discussion

Have you checked the price of mahi mahi or ono in your store lately? Let alone ahi or natagi (stripped marlin) for sashimi?

I don't think so.

Sail fish are generally released, but not the good eating stuff above.

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I catch and release everything I catch from my kayak that includes 1/2lb. bass to 30lb. plus yellowtail, halibut and sharks. Why do I release fish? Because when I'm in my kayak, I am a sportfisherman, not shopping for groceries.
I don't have a family of fifteen to feed and I have a job where I make enough money to buy enough food so I can release some of the fish I catch. Do I ever keep fish? Sure. Usually, one or two overnight offshore trips fills my bud's and my freezer with albacore, bluefin and yellowfin tuna, dorado and yellowtail for the whole year.
I've been fishing in this area for more than thirty years. I've seen fish populations drop, the water quality go from blue to foamy grey and the coastal environment totally destroyed by unrestrained development. So throwing a few fish back is my way of showing respect for what's left of the inshore environment.

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Waterman at Work - Kayak Fishing Photos, Video,Kayak Rigging - Blog

If the hatch was about 50% larger I might be able to store _some_ of it underneath.

When tournament fishing time is of the essence - finding something inside the hatch would require way too much time sorting through the amount of tackle and gear required for this style. The Adventure, as it stands now, is a great boat to match my style. I was begging them for a long, skinny boat with tons of deck storage for exactly the reasons I'm using it now.

The Revolution is a great boat for sure but it's not what I want - I've already got what I want.

A company can't be all things to all people. In looking at priorities, you have to first look at the company's purpose or mission. In Hobie's case, it seems to be fun on the water. Looking at it's scope, there is a strong surfing and sailing heritage. Finally, looking at its resources, it's present facility is running at capacity, with major physical restraints to plant expansion.

A lot of Hobie's success has been in creating new markets that it can uniquely capitalize on. The Mirage drive, integrating sailing with kayaking, the sidekick, the AI.... It has wisely avoided chasing the industry in areas that have been well established. To that end, a lot of their resources go into R & D.

Would an 18'+ kayak better meet their corporate goals better than any of their present line-up? I would think not. Why? 1) There are relatively few 18'+ kayakers out there. 2) the versatility of use goes down as the length goes up (versatility is a key element in their present line-up). 3) Can their existing ovens handle that length? Don't know, but it may be a significant factor.

As to giving up the cargo bay for an enclosed hatch, it doesn't really make sense from their point of view. On the contrary, the evolution of the open cargo bay has been a great innovative replacement for closed storage! Camping gear, scuba tanks, bait tanks, easier access to a host of gear -- versatile, simple, inexpensive. Why, you can even bring your dog along!

The best Hobie could hope to offer, as I see it, would be a pod insert as a cargo well accessory. Even then, is there enough market to justify the resource cost?

So if a more specific product is needed for certain pelagic endeavors, if specialized materials are required for weight or abrasion considerations, if larger sails are desired, these may be beyond Hobie's scope (or capabilities). Specialty or custom manufacturers could be better suited to such needs.

Of course, I could be wrong about all this. Hobie knows their business better than anybody -- especially me! Just my 2 cents (at most!).

Good points, RR. A kayak that has and does everything cannot be made. I know a lot of you like the Mirage drive models, but the beauty of a kayak like the Quest is that it is simple, secure and stable. I go out in the ocean most of the time, many times launching through surf that can be quite crunchy. All my gear fits below deck, there's nothing to break or lose(except the paddle) and it's easy to set it up and load it on the truck. Also, pretty much zero maintenance. That's why I have a Quest.
If I went out mostly on lakes and bays, I'd probably want a Mirage drive where the benefits of pedaling are greater than the need for below deck storage. There would be no need to pull the drive out and lash it to the boat to get out past the surf or secure items below deck.
Surfers learned a long time ago that one surfboard will not work on all waves. Same deal with kayaks. Pick the boat that is best for the conditions you'll be in. If you need something more than the manufacturer can provide, make it yourself.
Hobie is doing a pretty good job with new watercraft in a new sport. Kayak fishing and SOT kayaking in general are in the formative stages, there's a lot more to come. From a background of sailing and surfing, I'm pretty sure Hobie realizes the value of user feedback, and they probably have a good idea of where they want to go with their boats.

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Waterman at Work - Kayak Fishing Photos, Video,Kayak Rigging - Blog

All due respect to the posters here who raised some interesting points, you have not addressed the main issue raised by the letter.

I can understand defending your ideas, but they appear to me to be based on fishing your turf, other than on requirements for open ocean fishing for large fish.

Only Roadrunner has addressed the issue IMHO in his statement:

So if a more specific product is needed for certain pelagic endeavors, ....Specialty or custom manufacturers could be better suited to such needs.


He's implying there is not enough market for what I have proposed to Doug.

Is there? Only Hobie can make the decision to test and see. I point out, however, they now have 12 different kayak models. So they are not shy about entering any particular segment.

KFS has many posters that have discussed a fast open ocean fishing kayak. Not many models even come close to what has been discussed . Hobie has a chance to build something here that would fit most of the cirteria people have thrown around.

It's only been in recent years that the sport has seen the more aggressive fisherman go after the big ones. That trend is likely to increase as more experience and knowledge is gained, and the right craft poduced. I not only think there is a market there, I think it is expandable with that yak..

The old built it and they will come...er...er..buy it. whatever.

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