Adventure Island Jib and Lee Helm

No worries Greg, I now fully understand where you are coming from! There is no doubt that it should be possible to improve the sailing performance of a TI (or AI), so experimenting with a jib is a good place to start.

I, on the other hand, have come from sailing and racing vessels ranging from J24 keelboatss through 33 foot cats to 41 foot keelboats, and I am relishing the relative simplicity of sailing my TI. (having 11 or more controls just to shape the mainsail for conditions can get old!), and at first I fretted about how little say I have in getting the TI sail working perfectly, with a bendy unstayed mast, and battens which wrap around the mast when reducing sail area, and no traveller out back, but now I savour the lack of workload .

Good luck in your journey!

_________________
Tony Stott
2012 Tandem Island "SIC EM" with Hobie spinnaker

Having listened to the bright and experience folks on this forum and thinking this jib idea through, I am still coming to the conclusion that this jib, that furler into the mainsail, makes good sense. I don't want to over complicate the sailing experience. This setup acomplishes that.

On the issue of function -the fact that you can't furl the jib separate from the main sail, I bet it's not a real issue. When you slow down the video and watch how much main sail remains out when the jib has effectively been reefed enough to be a non-issue in higher winds, I find that it leaves exactly the Amount of mainsail that I want in high winds. I won't know unti I try it but I suspect that once you begin to reef the jib probably reduces the air flow to the main sail slowing the boat. But I tend to either go full sail or next to nothing on the main anyway so lack of performance in the middle would not be a game changer for me. I bet though, that there will be some grades of function in the middle.The thought of back stays and mast toppers to maximize function would bring this project to an end for me. Top much new stuff to have to deal with everytime I sail.

I'm going to give this a go. I'll report back so no one else wastes time and money if it does'this work. Trying it iwill be half the fun.

Greg

_________________
Greg

2016 AI - Spinn & Jib

“Out of sight of land the sailor feels safe. It is the beach that worries him.”
– Charles G. Davis

I am with you Greg. 100%.

It's a clever idea and I've been a fan of it for some time. Good luck.

Thanks Nohuhu. One issue the direction of tension on the jib sheet. When you look at later videos you see that the author abandons the one sheet idea and runs two sheets in more typical fashion. His boat appears to perform better in those subsequent videos.

I can't purchase a 2015 AI without giving up the quarterdeck. I don't want to that. I know it will kill me not to have that extra sail power you new AI owners will have. My jib will have to be my consultation prize.

Greg

_________________
Greg

2016 AI - Spinn & Jib

“Out of sight of land the sailor feels safe. It is the beach that worries him.”
– Charles G. Davis

Here is a later video showing a more traditional angle for the jib lines. This is what I had in mind or some modification of this. The jib appears better trimmed and the boat appears to moves well. I don't have enough experience with jibs to know for sure but I suspect this arraignment would improve the jibs performance. Not sure it it interfers with the furling but I'll figure it out.




Greg

_________________
Greg

2016 AI - Spinn & Jib

“Out of sight of land the sailor feels safe. It is the beach that worries him.”
– Charles G. Davis

Boat is certainly moving well in what appears to be light breeze (Beaufort scale 4-6 kt breeze). Main is either undersheeted or the jib is oversheeted...sheet point for jib is also a little outboard of optimum for pointing...but then, the boat was on a close reach, not trying to point (after all, you need to foot in light breeze). I suspect there was significant lee helm judging by the course corrections through the sail. Alternatively, the main may have significantly more camber built into it than the jib judging solely by the sails' bellies around 2 minutes into the video. The camera lens may have exaggerated the belly in the mainsail, though. Personally, I find lee helm dangerous. Of course, I sail in a very gusty area with gust to lull factor of 2 to 3 times (lull of 8 kts and may have gusts as much as 24). Keeps it interesting, though. You probably don't have that worry.

_________________
R/Thom
SeaRail 19
Triak
BMW C600
Formerly Getaway with Custom Spinnakers
Formerly raced F24 Mk II

It looks pretty darn nice to me. I like the angle of your jib control line, they seem to keep the jib from bending into a banana shape (others have had the problem because of the floppy mast), seems to stay in a nice shape, and seems to be sized right, not tipping the boat over and creating huge lee helm (my first designs were all way to big).
You have a bit of an advantage on the AI because the main is mounted far enough back from the bow (unlike the TI).
Good luck
Bob

Bob, surely only 4 inches difference is insignificant? (now stop right there you deviants!)

_________________
Tony Stott
2012 Tandem Island "SIC EM" with Hobie spinnaker

When completed, I'll take some video with a GPS with the halyard raised and lowered to compare. If the design proves to have merit, I can post the jib dimensions and details here. The sailmaker was interested in producing jib kits for us- ready to install and based on our experience for others to purchase if so inclined. I can try to arrange for all the hardware included. Of course we do this at our own risk. Who knows what damage we can do to our boats. Actually Bob does.

Greg

_________________
Greg

2016 AI - Spinn & Jib

“Out of sight of land the sailor feels safe. It is the beach that worries him.”
– Charles G. Davis

So true! One concern would be the fragility of the hobie mainsail, when its Mylar panels when interwound with the jib. Any jib battens, knots or shackle hardware could snag, puncture or wear the main.

Another would be safety concerns in big wind/gusts. Can it all be easily and reliably doused?

I find that the mainsail itself twists, and often rotates around the mast. It slides up and down slightly too. Attaching the jib halyard through a slot in the mainsail needs to allow for this movement.

As an "all in" sail plan for light winds, this one's uber cool. Partially deployed though, it could have very inefficient windflow. When it's furled, you lose the "slot effect" of channeling wind over the lee of the mainsail. I could be wrong about that. It may rock.

Yes, a "regular" masthead rig offers the advantage of being able to reef and trim each sail independently. That's what you'll be giving up here. But hey, life's a compromise.

Godspeed! We Tweakers of the Plastic Hobie World salute you!!

I decided not to do a slot in the mainsail but rather have a sail builder sew a 1 inch strip of canvas onto the sail along the front of the mast. The canvas has 3 loops about a foot apart. One loop will have the halyard attached. I will use the smallest block with the smoothest edges to avoid damaging the mail when furled. If surprisingly, the partially furled main/jib still moves the boat in an acceptable way, I may leave out the halyard alltogether and just tie the jib head to one of the loops. Everything depends on how the rigging performs but my focus is on reducing lines and hardware wherever I can.

If the jib works out and if there is enough interest by others to purchase jib kits, I may be able to convince the sail maker to create some other test sails (genoas or even smaller jibs) that we can test drive as well. Would be great to workout the ideal size for an AI headsail.

If one of us starts the Hobie Island Schooner project the forum moderator should probably just shut us all down.

Greg

_________________
Greg

2016 AI - Spinn & Jib

“Out of sight of land the sailor feels safe. It is the beach that worries him.”
– Charles G. Davis

Greg, if the moderator can accept fusioneng's twin engine, headsail and spinnaker TI, I don't reckon you have any fears of being shut down! In fact, I would really like to see a schooner, yawl, ketch, lateen etc rig.

Here is something to get your creative juices working!
https://sp.yimg.com/ib/th?id=HN.6080304 ... d=15.1&P=0

_________________
Tony Stott
2012 Tandem Island "SIC EM" with Hobie spinnaker

Attached is a video of my plans for running the jib furling line as well as jib sheets. All lines can attach to the hull without permanent modification as shown in the video. If I need more secure cleats, I plan on buying some cam cleats to place on the hatch. Here are my initial plans...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yT8epQo ... BMgm88C_7Q

Greg

_________________
Greg

2016 AI - Spinn & Jib

“Out of sight of land the sailor feels safe. It is the beach that worries him.”
– Charles G. Davis

suggest a little KISS in your plans. Start out without the additional jib block outboard on the beam. You probably won't need it if you size the jib correctly.

I would probably put the jib tack on a movable loop on the line back to the cockpit. I'd also make the jib a pretty high aspect ratio sail with no more than 1 meter foot. Good luck.

_________________
R/Thom
SeaRail 19
Triak
BMW C600
Formerly Getaway with Custom Spinnakers
Formerly raced F24 Mk II

TPDavis473, there will be a sencond bow block on the jib that retracts to the main when reefed. Couldn't show that without the jib. Help me understand what you are suggesting by a "high aspect ratio sail. Do you mean that the jib's foot needs to be higher than the main's foot? Thanks.

Greg

_________________
Greg

2016 AI - Spinn & Jib

“Out of sight of land the sailor feels safe. It is the beach that worries him.”
– Charles G. Davis